Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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ELB
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Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

#1

Post by ELB »

Via Dave Hardy's post at Of Arms and the Law

Mr. Hardy's Post:
Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

The Deseret News has the story. The problem is that a majority of their applicants are from out of State, and this year they'll issue 40,000 of them.

Limiting it to residents might bump up against the privileges and immunities clause of the Constitution (i.e, the original one, not the 14th Amendment). That's a complex subject; a challenge to the NY requirement that a person either live or have an office in-State in order to get a firearms permit there was upheld a while back on the tenuous ground that the State wasn't discriminating unfairly, it just found it easier to keep track of people who lived or officed there.

Hat tip to Joe Olson....
The story in the Deseret News:
http://deseretnews.com/article/content/ ... tView=true
Gun permits shoot up
Reject applications from out of state, some say

By Lisa Riley Roche
Deseret News
Published: May 22, 2008

As the number of concealed weapons permits issued by Utah continues to climb, public safety officials told lawmakers Wednesday it might be time to stop accepting applications from out-of-state.
By the end of the year, Utah is projected to have issued more than 40,000 concealed weapons permits — nearly a 150 percent increase over 2007 and more than a 250 percent boost from 2006.

Slightly more than half of the permit applications received since the beginning of the budget year on July 1, 2007, have gone to Utahns. But since 1994, about two-thirds of the applications have come from out-of-state.

"This program has been growing by leaps and bounds," Lt. Doug Anderson, who runs the concealed weapons permit program for the Utah Department of Public Safety, told members of the Legislature's Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Interim Committee.

The increase in applications has boosted revenues from the program to about $1 million annually, up from a projected $600,000 or so. That's enabled the department to cut the time it takes to process an application from three months to just one, Anderson said.

But committee member Sen. Bill Hickman, R-St. George, was more interested in why the state was issuing concealed weapons permits to non-Utahns rather than simply relying on existing reciprocity agreements with other states.

Those agreements allow concealed weapons permits to be treated like a drivers license. For example, someone with a Utah driver's license may legally drive in other states just as someone with a license issued by another state may legally drive in Utah.

Public safety officials said the long-standing practice of issuing permits to non-Utahns has left them with problems, including policing out-of-state instructors teaching a required course to obtain the Utah permit. Some 70 percent of the Utah-certified instructors don't live here.

"We would welcome some clarification," Public Safety Commissioner Scott Duncan told the committee, reminding them the state has already stopped issue permits to non-U.S. residents last year for similar reasons.

He said any benefit to the state from issuing permits to non-Utahns "would be hard to know" when asked by another committee member, Sen. Scott McCoy, D-Salt Lake, to come up with pluses of the program.

Later, Duncan said he's recommending the state stop issuing the permits to non-Utahns but the decision is up to lawmakers. "We'll do it any way they want us to do it," he said, adding, "I think we need to look out for our state first."

One of the strongest gun-rights advocates in the Legislature, Rep. Curt Oda, R-Clearfield, who also sits on the committee, said the question he would ask about issuing concealed weapons permits to non-Utahns is simply, "Why not?"

Oda said after the meeting that he would oppose eliminating out-of-state permits.

"An American is an American," he said. "I don't care if he's a New York American or a Utah American, as citizens we have rights."
p.s.

It just struck me that no one in the article mentions a possible (I think probable) reason for so many out of state licenses -- that it covers states that another state's resident permit may not. Interesting that this was not brought up -- at least in the article.
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Re: Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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Post by KBCraig »

Yep, it's Nevada's fault.

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Re: Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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I wonder if it has occured to Utah that this could be a source of revenue. They could raise the price of nonresident CHLs from $60 to $100 for five years and probably lose less than 10% of their renewals and new applicants. Then charge out of state instructors, say maybe $100 for a five year right to teach the class out of state. You know how greedy government people can be when they start seeing dollar signs.

I think Utah is unlikely to restrict nonresident license as it helps fund the program for Utah residents. Such a move would be rather stupid.
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Re: Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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TEX wrote:I wonder if it has occured to Utah that this could be a source of revenue...
Looking at this quote from the article:
The increase in applications has boosted revenues from the program to about $1 million annually, up from a projected $600,000 or so. That's enabled the department to cut the time it takes to process an application from three months to just one, Anderson said.
I somehow doubt that "problems" with the program are a reason that someone wants to cut back on non-resident licenses. My cynical side wonders if this isn't an anti-chl effort to work at the margins, since they lost the war on CHL in general. But, as I said, perhaps I am just being cynical... :grumble

It is also interesting to compare Utah's experience -- more license applications = more revenue = faster application turn-arounds --- to Texas's experience -- more apps = more revenue = slower turnaround...
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Re: Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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Post by seamusTX »

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,51 ... 48,00.html
A story in Thursday's Deseret News incorrectly stated the number of applications for a Utah concealed weapons permit received from out-of-state. Since 1994, about two-thirds of the applications have come from Utahns.
What I find interesting is that the recommendation to stop issuing license to non-residents comes from "Public Safety Commissioner Scott Duncan."

I have no idea what this office means in Utah.

Go here: http://publicsafety.utah.gov/commission ... _5739.html
Wait ... wait ... wait.
Click the "Commissioners" tab, then "Commissioner Duncan." He's a former police officer (as in captain).

The way this page is constructed does not allow text to be copied and pasted.

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Re: Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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Post by Penn »

Will they revoke current licenses? The article says "stop accepting applications", which has me wondering.
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Re: Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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Post by seamusTX »

I think it's unlikely that they would revoke licenses that they already issued. That would be more work, and open them up to being sued. I'm assuming that Utah law, like ours, spells out specific grounds for revocation; and "because we feel like it" isn't among them.

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Re: Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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Post by ELB »

Penn wrote:Will they revoke current licenses? The article says "stop accepting applications", which has me wondering.
The debate reported in the article was in conjunction with some of the legislators looking at the Utah CHL program. It appears that although Public Safety Commissioner Scott is not very supportive of Utah non-resident CHLs, I am guessing he does not feel the current law gives him the power to revoke them, as reporter states he believes "the decision is up to the lawmakers."

Thus the article does NOT say they have stopped accepting applications, nevermind revoking current licenses.

However, if the legislature chooses to change the program, anything is up for grabs, including revoking current non-resident licenses. Hopefully there are more Utah legislators like Rep Oda, rather than like Commissioner Scott.
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Re: Utah weighs restricting CCWs for nonresidents

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Post by DoubleJ »

I bet Linda's/Charles' classes fill up before they have a chance to stop taking the apps!
FWIW, IIRC, AFAIK, FTMP, IANAL. YMMV.
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