Question on carrying at customer's site

[dukesean]

I searched the threads for an answer to this question but could not seem to find one.

My employer states nothing about carrying to work, so I do. However, I often make visits to customers' sites for meetings etc. I have never seen a 30.06 sign anywhere on their buildings, but they have plenty of gunbuster signs. I also have a security badge from them, which allows me to access their campus by simply flashing the badge to security at the entrances. However, I do know that in my application for the badge, it states by having/using the badge I must abide by employee rules, which include no guns.

My question is two-fold.
1) Is there anything illegal about carrying on their campus as one of their vendors, if no 30.06 sign is posted, but knowing that they ban it in the employee guideline? I'm assuming right now the answer is no, and that the worst that can happen is that they revoke my badge and stop buying from my company.

2) I can access the campus without using the security badge simply by checking in at the entrance and providing my drivers license, which is a minor inconvenience. This means that I am not under obligation to abide by the rules put forth by using the badge. Should I stop using the badge and simply check in every single time, or should I just keep using the badge until I get "caught" (which should be never)?

[boomerang]

If there's no 30.06 sign then you should be legal, assuming your customers are not schools, courts, etc.
Also assuming the customer didn't give you verbal notice of their antigun policy.

If they find out you're carrying, you say they might stop doing business with your company. Think about what your company might do if they lost a big customer because you violated the customer's policies. Even if you didn't violate your company's policy, there could be consequences to losing a big customer. Your customer might also talk about it with his golf buddies.

Carrying might still be the right decision. You just need to make sure you consider all the consequences.

[TDDude]

Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal, Conceal.

Become the Concealment god and don't worry about it.

[bryang]

However, I do know that in my application for the badge, it states by having/using the badge I must abide by employee rules, which include no guns.

You seem to have thought this through very well, the only thing that bothers me is the company's rules attached to the badge, that you had to sign for... it looks like by having the badge it would constrict you to the company's rules. And, there again, if you just sign in and there are no 30.06 signs, I wouldn't think you would have any problems.

Good Luck!

[WildBill]

However, I do know that in my application for the badge, it states by having/using the badge I must abide by employee rules, which include no guns.
2) I can access the campus without using the security badge simply by checking in at the entrance and providing my drivers license, which is a minor inconvenience. This means that I am not under obligation to abide by the rules put forth by using the badge. Should I stop using the badge and simply check in every single time, or should I just keep using the badge until I get "caught" (which should be never)?

+1 on Boomerang's post

IMO, just because you don't sign for the badge doesn't mean that you aren't obligated to follow the rules. If you get caught the consequences from the company will be the same whether you agreed to follow the rules or not. You can claim ignorance of the rules, but it still doesn't matter. If they find you are carrying, they will ask you to leave and your company will find out that you carried a handgun on the customer's property. Even though you may not be breaking any laws, they might even call the police. If you expect either your employer or customer to cut you slack because you didn't sign for the badge, you are dreaming.

Your company expects you to abide by company policy when you are on the job, no matter if you are on company property or at a customer site. Since you are acting as a representative of the company, I think that your company would expect you to respect and observe the rules and policies of their customers when you visit their sites. To do otherwise is disrespectful and unprofessional.

IMO, trying to find subtle ways to get around company policies is not productive. No one is going to admire or reward you for being so clever that you legally got away with carrying a concealed handgun on your customer's property against their wishes.

As with many decisions, it all boils down to whether or not you want to accept the risks. You have to make a choice if you willing to lose your job if you are caught. After you get fired, are you willing to have to disclose on an employment application that you were fired from your last job for carrying a handgun at work. If your answers are "yes" then carrry away.

[XDpackinBob]

Well From what I read and understand in the Texas Concealed Handgun Laws 07-08, DPS issued LS-16 Aug 07, notice can come in different forms.

Verbal, written card or document, or posted sign (30.06)

If you have been given a Document that you had to sign to get your badge that stated no guns then this alone is enough.

This would be written notice. And has the same power and effect as a 30.06 sign and you can loose you CHL if caught.

If the property owner or one of there reps, walk up to you and tells you no guns allowed that is all they need to do as well and also has the same power and effect as a 30.06 sign.

The 30.06 sign is only required if they want to exclude CHL's and don't want to have to hand out Cards/Documents at the entrance stating no guns allowed or stand at the entrance and tell everybody that enters no guns allowed or have not had each person/worker/contractor issued a document, signed (as you say you have been for your badge) stating no guns allowed.

HTH.

[Mike1951]

There have been many, lengthy discussions here on written notices.

It is the concensus of many, if not most, that any form of written communication must also adhere to the requirements, except for size and maybe the Spanish content, of 30.06.

So it has been argued that employee manuals and employee agreements that are not 30.06 are not valid notice.

Much reading on this if you wish to search.

[dukesean]

Thanks for all the responses y'all.

I guess it really does boil down to weighing my options and risks of each option. Even if I were "caught" so to speak, I would hardly be fired (I have pretty strong job security) and my company would not lose this customer (the nature of the business is much more important than just one person). My chief concern is whether or not I would be breaking any laws when it comes to carrying at this customer's site.

It may just be semantics when I talk about whether or not to use the badge. As far as I'm concerned, if I don't use the badge then I am no longer bound by their employee guidelines, and since there is no 30.06 posted at the entrances, then I consider myself perfectly within my right to carry. I think I'll just stop using the badge, despite the inconvenience factor.

On a side note, it really irks me when companies enact these ridiculous policies restricting employees with CHLs from carrying. Maybe it's all their lawyers trying to limit liability, but if someone really wanted to do some damage, (s)he sure as heck wouldn't be posing all these legal questions on a forum beforehand. But I'm just preaching to the choir who has heard this sermon over and over already [/rant]

[KC5AV]

It may just be semantics when I talk about whether or not to use the badge. As far as I'm concerned, if I don't use the badge then I am no longer bound by their employee guidelines, and since there is no 30.06 posted at the entrances, then I consider myself perfectly within my right to carry. I think I'll just stop using the badge, despite the inconvenience factor.

Just don't be surprised to find that they have a different interpretation of their guidelines. In my opinion (IANAL), you would be covered from a legal standpoint, but that doesn't preclude other consequences. While you may not be fired, and you may not lose the customer, there are still outcomes that may not be favorable.

Should you opt to carry, make sure that you do so as the result of an informed decision rather than personal opinion.

[Right2Carry]

I am almost positive that you will find some sign (parking lot, entry points, or building entry), or at least on the paperwork you sign to enter the facility some wording that requires you to adhere to the policies of the company. Your signature whether signing for the badge or signing in will have the same effect IMHO. You have already signed for the badge so even if you don't use it, you still are aware and agreed to abide by their company policies.

I think you are trying to split hairs that will not hold up IMHO. Even if you give the badge back they already have your signature stating that you are aware of company policy regarding firearms and agree to abide by them. Once again this comes down to how much money do you want to spend to try and prove you are right if you ever get caught?

They may not take the business away from your current employer, but they can demand at the least that you never set foot on their property again. Those that play with fire will eventually get burned.

[WildBill]

It may just be semantics when I talk about whether or not to use the badge. As far as I'm concerned, if I don't use the badge then I am no longer bound by their employee guidelines, and since there is no 30.06 posted at the entrances, then I consider myself perfectly within my right to carry. I think I'll just stop using the badge, despite the inconvenience factor.

Not to beat a dead horse, but once you have been given notice it can't be undone.

[hirundo82]

Well From what I read and understand in the Texas Concealed Handgun Laws 07-08, DPS issued LS-16 Aug 07, notice can come in different forms.

Verbal, written card or document, or posted sign (30.06)

If you have been given a Document that you had to sign to get your badge that stated no guns then this alone is enough.

This would be written notice. And has the same power and effect as a 30.06 sign and you can loose you CHL if caught.

If the property owner or one of there reps, walk up to you and tells you no guns allowed that is all they need to do as well and also has the same power and effect as a 30.06 sign.

The 30.06 sign is only required if they want to exclude CHL's and don’t want to have to hand out Cards/Documents at the entrance stating no guns allowed or stand at the entrance and tell everybody that enters no guns allowed or have not had each person/worker/contractor issued a document, signed (as you say you have been for your badge) stating no guns allowed.

HTH.

You are correct that legally binding notice can be in spoken, written, or posted form. However, only spoken notice does not have a proper for prescribed in the law.

We are of course all familiar with the requirements for a binding sign under Section 30.06; that same section also describes how written notice shall be given:

§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

As long as the paperwork you signed did not contain the legally binding wording and you have never been told that carrying on the customer's premises is prohibited you would be breaking no law. However, it does not protect you from any non-criminal repercussions if you are discovered--eg the customer terminating their relationship with your employer, your employer firing you because you endangered their contract with a client, etc.