Question about daughter carrying in car.

[Mike from Texas]

I have a 19yo daughter that wants to carry a gun in her car. She works nights and is going to/coming from work sometimes at 3-4 AM. My question, with the legality of carrying a loaded concealed handgun in your car and her age. I know she is not old enough to legally OWN a handgun, but what about having one that is registered to me in her possession in her vehicle? One of her friends had a really scary incident happen recently and now she is more nervous than ever. She will be getting her CHL as soon as she turns 21 and she wants to take some defensive pistol training when she gets it.

Sure makes a Dad proud!

[Pinkycatcher]

I have a 19yo daughter that wants to carry a gun in her car. She works nights and is going to/coming from work sometimes at 3-4 AM. My question, with the legality of carrying a loaded concealed handgun in your car and her age. I know she is not old enough to legally OWN a handgun, but what about having one that is registered to me in her possession in her vehicle? One of her friends had a really scary incident happen recently and now she is more nervous than ever. She will be getting her CHL as soon as she turns 21 and she wants to take some defensive pistol training when she gets it.

Sure makes a Dad proud!

I believe, don't quote me on this, I'll have to pull out my book when I get home, but she can OWN a handgun at 18, but cannot BUY one until 21, now she cannot carry one concealed in her car until she is 21, though I presume she might be able to open carry? Probably not, it's kind of a crappy situation for those of us under 21 at the moment, though I can see the reasoning behind it, I don't like it.

[seamusTX]

It's competely legal. Nowhere in the penal code is there an age limitation on possession of a weapon.

It's not likely to be an issue unless she is stopped by an officer that routinely asks if the person has a weapon, and is the type that will arrest first and ask questions later. I am not confident that all police officers are properly trained in the recent changes to the law.

She can own a weapon. She just can't buy one from an FLL. If you simply give it to her, it's hers.

She can also take training now. Some ranges requires people under 21 to be accompanied by a parent, so you might have to go with her.

- Jim
[Edited to correct typo]

[Mike from Texas]

I believe, don't quote me on this, I'll have to pull out my book when I get home, but she can OWN a handgun at 18, but cannot BUY one until 21, now she cannot carry one concealed in her car until she is 21, though I presume she might be able to open carry? Probably not, it's kind of a crappy situation for those of us under 21 at the moment, though I can see the reasoning behind it, I don't like it.

Based on the amendment to HB1815, why would she not be able to carry it in her car concealed if she is under 21. By concealed I mean in a console, glove box, etc... not actually on her person.

[seamusTX]

This was discussed thoroughly last year: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 34&p=88581

There is no age restriction. A 16-year-old licensed driver can legally carry in a vehicle. Police officials sometimes complain about this, and it's one of the reasons for our D grade from the Bradys.

- Jim

[DParker]

It's competely legal. Nowhere in the penal code is there an age limitation on possession of a weapon.

In this case it's legal, but there most certainly is an age limitation on unsupervised possession (which this scenario involves) of a "readily dischargable" firearm in the TX Penal Code:

§ 46.13. MAKING A FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO A CHILD.
(a) In this section:
(1) "Child" means a person younger than 17 years of age.
(2) "Readily dischargeable firearm" means a firearm that is loaded with ammunition, whether or not a round is in the chamber.
(3) "Secure" means to take steps that a reasonable person would take to prevent the access to a readily dischargeable firearm by a child, including but not limited to placing a firearm in a locked container or temporarily rendering the firearm inoperable by a trigger lock or other means.
(b) A person commits an offense if a child gains access to a readily dischargeable firearm and the person with criminal negligence:
(1) failed to secure the firearm; or
(2) left the firearm in a place to which the person knew or should have known the child would gain access.
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the child's access to the firearm:
(1) was supervised by a person older than 18 years of age and was for hunting, sporting, or other lawful purposes;
(2) consisted of lawful defense by the child of people or property;
(3) was gained by entering property in violation of this code; or
(4) occurred during a time when the actor was engaged in an agricultural enterprise.
(d) Except as provided by Subsection (e), an offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
(e) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor if the child discharges the firearm and causes death or serious bodily injury to himself or another person.
(f) A peace officer or other person may not arrest the actor before the seventh day after the date on which the offense is committed if:
(1) the actor is a member of the family, as defined by Section 71.003, Family Code, of the child who discharged the firearm; and
(2) the child in discharging the firearm caused the death of or serious injury to the child.
(g) A dealer of firearms shall post in a conspicuous position on the premises where the dealer conducts business a sign that contains the following warning in block letters not less than one inch in height:

"IT IS UNLAWFUL TO STORE, TRANSPORT, OR ABANDON AN UNSECURED
FIREARM IN A PLACE WHERE CHILDREN ARE LIKELY TO BE AND CAN OBTAIN
ACCESS TO THE FIREARM."

I'm fairly sure that the amendments to 46.02 do not contravene the restrictions of 46.13.

[seamusTX]

This law makes it an offense for the person who allows a minor child access to a loaded weapon. It is not an offense for the child.

How many times do we need to have this argument?

- Jim

[DParker]

This law makes it an offense for the person who allows a minor child access to a loaded weapon. It is not an offense for the child.

How many times do we need to have this argument?

Likely until you get it right. You said the penal code contains no age restrictions on the possession of a firearm. Clearly there are. The fact that the law makes the involved adult the prosecutable offender and not the minor (like most such laws) does not mean that there are "no age restrictions" on possession of the type under discussion. Say your 16 year-old gets pulled over, and when he opens the glove compartment to retrieve his insurance card the officer spots the Glock you gave him to keep in the car on his way to and from work. What do you suppose is going to be the likely outcome? You get arrested but Jr. gets to keep the handgun in his possession?

[flb_78]

but what about having one that is registered to me in her possession in her vehicle?

How do you register a gun in Texas? I know of no such thing.

[seamusTX]

Say your 16 year-old gets pulled over, and when he opens the glove compartment to retrieve his insurance card the officer spots the Glock you gave him to keep in the car on his way to and from work. What do you suppose is going to be the likely outcome?

I can see three likely outcomes:

• The officer understands the law, and nothing happens.
• The officer arrests for UCW, and the DA drops the charge.
• The DA accepts the charge, and the judge dismisses the case on preliminary motion.

It simply is not possible to find someone guilty of an offense that does not exist in the law.

- Jim

[DParker]

Say your 16 year-old gets pulled over, and when he opens the glove compartment to retrieve his insurance card the officer spots the Glock you gave him to keep in the car on his way to and from work. What do you suppose is going to be the likely outcome?

I can see three likely outcomes:

• The officer understands the law, and nothing happens.
• The officer arrests for UCW, and the DA drops the charge.
• The DA accepts the charge, and the judge dismisses the case on preliminary motion.

It simply is not possible to find someone guilty of an offense that does not exist in the law.

I see you're still not quite understanding what I'm getting at. In the scenario above you have, in violation of 46.13, given your "child" (as defined in that statute) unsupervised access to a readily dischargable firearm. So at a minimum *you* are guilty of an offense that most certainly does exist under the law. So to contend that "nothing happens" if "the officer understands the law" is quite incorrect.

Are you still contending that the officer is (assuming he understands the law) going to simply allow Jr. to drive away with the loaded Glock still in this glove compartment?

[Crossfire]

How about you just give her an AR-15 to carry in the car, and forget the handgun?

Just keeping it simple...

[seamusTX]

46.13 is prosecuted only when a kid does something stupid with a firearm, like taking it to school or shooting someone, and gets caught.

I have heard police chiefs complaining in the past that their officers cannot arrest minors who are driving around long guns (before car-carry was completely legal). They would have to applly the same reasoning to handguns now.

On a practical level, I know people who let their unsupervised kids shoot on their own property, and don't give it a second thought. I don't know any who them them drive around with a handgun.

- Jim

[Mike from Texas]

but what about having one that is registered to me in her possession in her vehicle?

How do you register a gun in Texas? I know of no such thing.

Well I don't pretend to know the process, but meaning that I am the one who purchased the gun. If for some reason she got pulled over or worse yet she actually had to shoot someone and the serial number was "run" would the gun not show up as me as the owner or does no such database exist?

[DParker]

46.13 is prosecuted only when a kid does something stupid with a firearm, like taking it to school or shooting someone, and gets caught.

OK. So we've gone from "there are no age limits" in the law to "well, it's not prosecuted". If I'd known you'd be moving the goalposts I'd have spent more time warming up my kicking leg

I have heard police chiefs complaining in the past that their officers cannot arrest minors who are driving around long guns (before car-carry was completely legal). They would have to applly the same reasoning to handguns now.

Well, I never said anything about arresting the minor. Could you see the officer maybe confiscating the weapon?

On a practical level, I know people who let their unsupervised kids shoot on their own property, and don't give it a second thought. I don't know any who them them drive around with a handgun.

Which makes that a pretty irrelevant anecdote.

I'm not looking for a urinary olympiad here. I'm just trying to prevent the erroneous impression that TX law says it's fine for kids of any age to possess firearms under any circumstances. That simply isn't true.