Had my first "incident" since getting my card a decade ago

[Humanphibian]

I had a confrontation with my Fiancee's ex tonight. It went to the toilet immediatly upon his arrival. A little history about the guy first: he has had an ever increasing problem with both perscription and illicit drugs over the past 24 months. He is a compulsive gambler,and a professional liar. He is constantly calling and threatening violence (up to and including arson, murder, agrevated assault...etc), generally pushing buttons, and being a major pain everytime he gets lit.....which is 2-3 times weekly, at the very least. He, up until tonight, has been your typical loudmouth, but a man of little action. Well tonight things changed.

He started badgering via text and v-mail mid afternoon. As per his general M.O. this is the prelude to a very interesting evening. The local P.D. was alerted to his banter. Unfortunaty we know the entire staff of our local P.D. by first name, and have many personal cell phone numbers as a result of our ongoing "challenges" with this guy. As expected the increased throughout the day. He made several threats to the effect that he was coming over to cause great damage, cause grave bodily harm to anyone brave enough to stand in his way....bla...bla...bla. I have heard this same ole song and dance more times than I can count. He had some property in the garage, and he was insistent that tonight was the night that he just had to come get it. After dismissing his requests several times as usual ....I finally got disgusted enough with his trash talk that I agreed he should come get it so we could finally be done with the subject. I happily, and politely, informed him that his property would be waiting on the sidewalk when he arrived, at the time in which he so vulgarly threatened to be there (and warned me I had better not be...lol). 911 was contacted at this time and a Civl Standby requested. My Fiancee was on the phone with the 911 operator for the duration of the event, up until FPD officers arrived.

I was armed, as always while around the house. I was carring on with the removal of his items, and placing them orderly on the sidewalk at the end of the alley (we have a corner lot, so alley and sdewalk intersect at back corner of lot opposite garage). I was up on a 6' ladder removing a larger 24' extension ladder from a rafter rack when I heard his F250. It slowed as he approached. Apparently he saw his stuff, and freaked. The F250 was in the drive and he was dismounting the vehicle in less than five seconds. I was in THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACE I COULD HAVE BEEN. I was on a ladder, with my hands full of ladder, hanging over our SUV. I verbally ordered him to stop, three times, which he ignored. He closed the gap of 20-25' so fast I barely had time to try and catch the ladder on the hook again and start down the ladder. I ended up jumping off of the ladder, only to be hit a glancing blow in the head by the falling extension ladder. Now at this point we are in the center of a 2-car garage with him less than 2 feet from me.

The thought passes through my head....CASTLE DOCTRINE....I can shoot if needed. I decide to shove him and get some space between us. All the time i am verbally ordering him to leave,and telling him "STOP!...STOP!....GET OUT! You are not coming in!!" He again approached, again I two handedly shoved him back. This time he stops rearward motion outside the garage. He AGAIN approaches, again I make an effort to shove him back. At this time I am inside and he is outside coming in. I went to push, commiting both hands, weight, and leverage with my legs to set him back further.....BIG MISTAKE!!! Left myself WIDE OPEN for a hook to my left temple. I'll give credit where it is due....it was a good shot. Didn't put me down....but it got my undivided attention. I dropped to a knee when he hit me, and came up in a different frame of mind!! The fight was on. It was a unglamorous, down and dirty scrap. Shorly after the fists started flying, it went to the ground. Did I feel comforted that I was armed at this point NO!! I carry my 229 in a VM2, and all I could think about was keeping posession of my carry gun. I fought the majority of this battle with my strong arm covering my weapon. I allowed myself to be put in a position that I had dreaded all of my adult life. I was in a fight with a dope fiend....and there was a gun there. I am not a BIG guy, but at 6'2" and 215, and a regular at the gym 4-5 times a week, I am fit, and capable of handling myself. I had him subdued, and totally submissive in fairly short order. He was given the option to get his stuff and leave....or just leave, buth either way....DON'T COME BACK! He chose the latter. His posessions were photographed, by my fiancee as well as FPD.....as they sat on the sidewalk....where they remain as I write this. FPD located him, got a voluntary Criminal Tresspass warning signed, and they offered to accompany him as he picked up his belongings. He declined...and chose to leave a $1200 air ompressor, several Werner 24' ladders, a Craftsman Rolling box full of hand tools, a stainless grill, and misc stuff...just siitting on the sidewalk. I can only wonder how much will be there tomorrow...LOL!!

Long story short....I have LOVED my VM2! I carry in it daily, and have for YEARS. But after this incident, I will be looking at some sort of retention rig to add to my collection.

Second, could I have used deadly force...sure! The guy has threatened my life more times than I can count. He is a known drug addict. He has a violent criminal record (to women and childeren) He has assaulted Police Officers when he has been removed from the property before. Any "Reasonable" person would be fearful of their life in a confrontation with him. HOWEVER.....I am glad I didn't. Not sure if I fully understand why....but I am actually happy. It is a wierd feeling, but I am sore, shaky from the addrenalin high, and still trying to take it all in and find the things I should have done dfferently....but the biggest thing I feel now is that I am happy and relieved that I didn't resort to deadly force as an option...

I still kinda lost in this mess...but I'll revise and add as things become clearer...

P.S. to CROSSFIRE.....Tell Marty I COMPLETELY understand the story from class now. Addrenaline is a funny thing!

[tboesche]

Dude, What a night! I am happy to hear that you came through it without much more than a couple of bruises and achy muscles. I would definatley be keping an eye on my six for a while. This guy does not sound like someone that will take a butt whoopin lightly.

I also have to give you credit. I think that about the time he hit me, I would be looking for an opportunity to draw and end the threat. Particularly given his history of making threats. YOU HAVE BEEN KEEPING COPIES OF THEM RIGHT?

All in all, I have to say you did ok.

[pbwalker]

Outstanding composure Humanphibian! I honestly don't know if I would have had the restraint you had...

Well done, and as tboesche said, just keep an eye on your 6 for a little while.

Bravo sir!

[propellerhead]

Wow! You really held off on using the last resort. I'm sure it will be debated for a long time.

[RiveraRa]

just a side note...To better train in ground fighting you might want to try Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Sometimes they will even offer classes with weapon retention in mind. At the very least it is a good work out! Glad to hear you are OK.

[Crossfire]

Humanphibian - I know you will question yourself, repeatedly, about what you did or didn't do. But know this - YOU DID GOOD! It was a bad situation, but it could have had an even worse outcome, and it didn't.

Would you have been justified in taking further action? Maybe, probably. Would it have been a good thing to do? Nope, definitely not.

[The Annoyed Man]

I think you showed exceptional control - both in a willingness to deal with this without lethal force, and in the ability to retain your weapon and disable the attack.

I would not have been so willing to go to the mat with the guy. For one thing, I'm not 6'2", 215lbs. (I wish I only weighed 215.) For another, due to health issues, I could have never prevailed. In short, once shoving contact was made, I would have drawn my weapon. If presenting the pistol did not make him back off at that point and he persisted in attacking, I would have shot him - particularly given his well documented past history of threatening and violent behavior.

Honestly, I would rather be able to handle it the way you did, but at my age and condition, it's not going to happen; all of which raises an interesting question...

Does anybody think that a CHL holder has a moral obligation to maintain tip top physical conditioning in order to carry concealed, so as to be able to put off the use of lethal force until physically unable to stop the attack? My own answer would be 'no.' It is unreasonable to assume that all CHL holders should be in Olympic condition; and a lot of people, myself included, got their CHL precisely because they know they are no longer physically able to engage in "boyish horseplay."

[Lumberjack98]

Sounds like you did well. Thank you for sharing this experience with us. Any time you come away from an encounter like that and you're not dead or injured, it's a success.

[yerasimos]

Good work, Humanphibian! I am curious, what was your opponent's height/weight, and training background (if any)?

To answer TAM’s enquiry: there are many CHLee’s who, because of bad genetics, lifestyle, injuries or whatever, will never be able to improve their physical conditioning far from a sedentary average, and it is obviously unrealistic to expect these individuals to meet a “tip top” or “Olympic” conditioning standard. That said, the better conditioning you can acquire, the better you will handle hands-on fights and the better you will be able to handle post-incident stress.

A 56 year old man who needs a half-cabinet full of medications clearly does not have the same capabilities as a 28 year old who trains MMA, flips truck tires and drags logs for cardio, lifts weights, runs, and eats like a horse while maintaining 6% bodyfat. There is no question that the latter is better prepared for certain types of fights than the former.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that as people who are not going around looking for fights, we have little control over the type of fight---or the type of opponent---we may face. If we had to choose a type of fight, some may choose a relatively static IDPA-type “shooting” with multi-yard standoff distances, but in the real world get to experience something like Humanphibian’s encounter and its tangle of heads, torsos and limbs. But I reckon that if one prepares to face a pair of fit, MMA-trained, 240 lb criminal warriors that have fighting experience from both Darrington Unit and Diyala province, it should be comparatively easier to handle a single 120 lb methamphetamine addict who charges you from 10 yards with a dull pocketknife.

Shorter version: It is less a question of moral obligation, and more a question of how badly you want to win a fight that may never come. Maintaining your health and fitness as best you can has definite carryover to how well you can handle a fight, both the in-progress portion and its aftermath, as well as other areas of your life. Just do the best you can; that is all you can expect from yourself anyway.

Speaking of BJJ, I can think of at least two reputable resources in the Houston area: Leandro Xavier’s place in Sugarland (black belt from Saulo Ribeiro), and the new Gracie Barra in the Clear Lake area. For a more rounded experience, Miletich Fighting Systems also has an affiliate here in Houston, and there are other places to train, too.

In addition, there is a well-regarded trainer coming to town in early October that is likely to address the type of fighting that Humanphibian experienced. Look in the Advanced Training section for details.

[Humanphibian]

Thanks to all for the replys. I will make a "Post Incident" analysis after everything shakes out, but as it stands right now...I am good with local LEO, good with the DA, and currently securing Protective orders etc.

The guy is 5'11" and 225-230. His is a fairly stout guy, and scrappy. I had full confidece in my physical ability to handle him, but havin a weapon in a non-restraint holster while dealing with a know drug user added a whole different dynamic to the encounter.

During my renewal class last weekend (Crossfire was GREAT!!!)...we discussed disparity of force. I am a health male, late 30's, in fairly good physical condition. I was facing a single attacker of similar build, slightly less physically fit, and possibly under the influence of an intoxicant. I was not overwhelmed by a group, or threatend with a weapon at the time, so my mindset was that this was gonna be a hand-to-hand thing unless it went downhill during the fray. I made tactical errors....yes! But I believe that my level of force was appropriate at the time, even though I may have bee justified using force beyond what was employed.

I am sorting out the event in my mind, and looking at the errors I made that allowed this guy in my "bubble" as fast as he was. I will sort it out and post my rundown after I get my 6 covered through the legal system, and get my mind back right knowing this idiot is out there....probably waiting for another opportunity to try me again.

Thanks Guys!
'Phib

[yerasimos]

I do not think I addressed this properly earlier.

Does anybody think that a CHL holder has a moral obligation to maintain tip top physical conditioning in order to carry concealed, so as to be able to put off the use of lethal force until physically unable to stop the attack?

I do not believe in any such moral obligation that you describe.

I do not believe that someone is "negligent" or morally deficient for failure to maintain a level of physical conditioning that may (or may not) enable someone to defer the use of deadly force. Just genetically unlucky, or having sustained injuries or made less-optimal lifestyle choices in the past, or simply insufficiently motivated to prepare for a fight that he (hopefully) did not choose to participate in and (ideally) should not have to deal with.

Conversely, I do not believe that someone's high level of physical conditioning necessarily requires him, under a standard of the "reasonable" person, to tolerate or risk greater injury than a person of lesser physical conditioning. It is reasonable to adjust the scale down, as in the case for someone with osteoperosis who is unlikely to survive being knocked to the ground without breaking bones. I question whether it is always reasonable to scale up the standard for fit/skilled people---that they can be automatically assumed to sustain more injury or absorb more punishment.

As far as I know, contact sports involving blunt trauma to the head, such as boxing, kickboxing, football, etc, do not condition the skull, brain tissue, etc, to become more resistant to injury. However, I expect their practitioners may become better accustomed to function during/after such trauma---in the context of those sports and their protective gear. But in a fight away from the gridiron or outside the ring, there are no referees, no Marquis of Queensbury rules, and no helmets or headgear or tape or 16oz gloves. I assume the fist on the street, applied quickly to the head, is lethal as it is. Furthermore, someone attacking you with what appears to be a punch could try to supplement his fist with a pointy piece of steel protruding from his knuckles, focusing the damage. I do not believe any human can be expected to tolerate this type of punishment, even wearing a hard-shell helmet.

That said, the better conditioned/better trained person may have more options available to him to terminate/nullify the other person's attack---whether it is sprinting away from someone with a knife, using a wrestling takedown on someone delivering boxing punches to the head, or something else. In both of these cases, I see deadly force being used/attempted by the aggressor. There would be less aftermath costs associated with running away (retreat) or using non-deadly force (assuming the takedown does not produce serious injury by itself) than proceeding immediately to (justifiable) deadly force, such as a handgun. My assumption is a non-deadly force incident will cost four figures, and a deadly force incident five figures or beyond. The non-monetary costs (alienation from friends/family, damage to reputation, negative gossip/publicity, etc) will be similarly scaled, comparing force and deadly-force aftermaths.

I see practical considerations as sufficient to warrant pursuing improved health and physical fitness---minimizing potential aftermath costs, better tolerance for aftermath stress, better readiness for handling multiple or fit/skilled opponents, and general health and longevity aside from self-defense considerations.

[Wildscar]

Dude, What a night! I am happy to hear that you came through it without much more than a couple of bruises and achy muscles. I would definatley be keping an eye on my six for a while. This guy does not sound like someone that will take a butt whoopin lightly.

I would agree. Next time he might bring backup of somekind. He might be in even more of a rage when he relizes that you didnt carry all his stuff back inside.

Glad to hear you made it out of this one.

[Mr.Scott]

So if I see this stuff sitting on a side walk on my way home I can have it?

In your situation you should have done anything you could have to avoid a physical confrontation. From what you say he has been abusive in the past and has escalated to physical violence now. While filing a restraining order is a good step, to someone intent on causing you harm it means nothing. I don't advocate shoot 1st ask questions later (very often), but if he shows up on your property again and fails to comply with commands given to him, I would have to . You can not and should not second guess his actions from now on. You got lucky. What if he had knocked you out with the punch to the temple??? What was going to stop him from stomping your head in? Or worse, stomping your head it and finding your gun and going after his ex?
While it's good that you didn't shoot him, you are now in a whole new world where you have to watch everything that goes on around you.

[Humanphibian]

So if I see this stuff sitting on a side walk on my way home I can have it?

In your situation you should have done anything you could have to avoid a physical confrontation. From what you say he has been abusive in the past and has escalated to physical violence now. While filing a restraining order is a good step, to someone intent on causing you harm it means nothing. I don't advocate shoot 1st ask questions later (very often), but if he shows up on your property again and fails to comply with commands given to him, I would have to . You can not and should not second guess his actions from now on. You got lucky. What if he had knocked you out with the punch to the temple??? What was going to stop him from stomping your head in? Or worse, stomping your head it and finding your gun and going after his ex?
While it's good that you didn't shoot him, you are now in a whole new world where you have to watch everything that goes on around you.

I wholeheartedly agree. At the time the confrontation began....I was not in control.....MISTAKE NUMBER ONE!! I had persons (3) with me, but failed to put someone on "Cover" to alert me in case of his arrival. This is a mistake that will not be repeated given a similar situation. It was a tactical error on my part OF THE HIGHEST MAGNITUDE, and believe me when I heard the turbo spool up on that 250 as he made the corner coming in the alley.....I realized it instantly. I also allowed myself to be lulled into believing he would remain a loudmouth, and that was all. I initially called FPD everytime he made a threat, they would come out, make or add to reports, and we would move on. That has subsided slightly as of late....MISTAKE NUMBER TWO! I always feared it would escalate, but this didn't outwardly appear to be a situation that would initiate this sort of response from him. MISTAKE NUMBER THREE!! Never try to rationalize or forsee the potential thoughts and/or actions of mentally unstable persons. Whether drunk, high, whatever....he was not rational at the time (at least as rational as he can be....as little as that is). Rest assured Condition Yellow is a thing of the past for me in his regard. I am firmly Orange right now, and will remain that way until the pending warrants are served, and he is livin life behind barbed wire. I know he is out there....I know he didn't take well to being thumped, and run off....and I know he has nothing to loose at this point.

My intentions with the reporting of every incident, seeking to secure Criminal Tresspass warnings, and obtaining Protective Orders are to cover my 6 in case.....GOD FORBID....I am forced to defend myself in a more agressive form in the future. There are case files several inces thick regarding this guy, none of which is positive. EVERY contact I have had with LEO's has been positive, rational, professional and they seem to hold me in high regard for how I have delt with him to this point. If I end up in court, civil or criminal, reagrding my dealings with him, I fully intend to have a VERY defensable position in the matter. There can never be too much documentation when it comes time to sit before the bench.

still werking through it....keep the feedback coming. Anybody else delt with this kind of person? Anyone ever ended up in a situation like this?

[SCone]

Are your neighbors aware of the concern? Are any of them gun owners? If so, I'd make sure they are watching out for you. He may try something when you're not home.

Be very carefull with leaving his stuff to be stolen. Right or wrong, all it will do is set him off. Can the police take it for you? Maybe get one of his friends to get it?

This guy is dangerous and has proven it by attacking you in your own home. Don't take ANY chances with him. We don't want to read about you in the paper.