When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

[Lonestar 48]

I know this is a sensitive subject, but most of us have never been in these situations. For those of you that have drawn your firearm, what were your feelings just prior to, and for awhile, afterwards? And for those of you who have actually fired your weapon, how was it coping with the aftermath? Not litigation-wise, but more the mental side. Last week I talked about this with a Dallas LEO, and we discussed how they get the training for the mental aspect of firing their weapons, both pre and post, and the consequences of having done so, and we both wondered how a CHL holder would handle it.

I expect that many, if not all, of you who have fired your weapons might be hesitant to talk about it in this forum, but anything that could be shared might benefit the entire membership.

[Armed-Texan]

can't say i have ever even drawn my weapon, but if i ever do and use it, i suspect i will need some serious counseling and spiritual guidance. while i am a christian and believe killing is a sin, i will protect myself and family with deadly force if needed. but like i said, i would probably spend a lot of time with my pastor afterwards.

[Excaliber]

I know this is a sensitive subject, but most of us have never been in these situations. For those of you that have drawn your firearm, what were your feelings just prior to, and for awhile, afterwards? And for those of you who have actually fired your weapon, how was it coping with the aftermath? Not litigation-wise, but more the mental side. Last week I talked about this with a Dallas LEO, and we discussed how they get the training for the mental aspect of firing their weapons, both pre and post, and the consequences of having done so, and we both wondered how a CHL holder would handle it.

I expect that many, if not all, of you who have fired your weapons might be hesitant to talk about it in this forum, but anything that could be shared might benefit the entire membership.

You've asked a very good but very complex question that would be really difficult to answer in a short post.

I suggest you pick up a copy of Col Dave Grossman's book On Combat. It's filled with the stories and the words of those who have lived through what you're asking about and shared their experiences, and it provides a wealth of solidly researched information on the physiological and psychological effects people encounter when they face life threatening danger and use weapons to defend their lives.

[Lonestar 48]

Thanks Excaliber, I just ordered the book, On Combat, from Amazon. The price was $14.90 plus shipping, for anyone else interested in buying it.

You are right; the questions I posed are very complex. Hopefully, people will take as much space as they need to share their experiences. Thoughts from the common CHL holder will be of great value I think. The experiences that Col. Grossman shares will be incredible learning tools for all of us.

[rm9792]

I have shot and killed in the middle east. I didnt have any issues afterward and since it was 15 years ago i guess i never will. Mindset to me is very important. Yes you killed a person but that person made the decision and faced the consequences. If I shoot someone trying to harm me or my daughter I will be more concerned with the upcoming hassles and paperwork than the scum i just stopped. To me an armed criminal is the enemy and has made his decision to engage in a dangerous line of work. I am in the small minority that doesnt believe all life is precious and must be preserved. I believe life is a gift that must be earned (except in children) and continue to be earned. When you choose to commit crimes and harm others for your own benefit then you are on borrowed time. I am sure you meant when a CHL has drawn but were also looking for mental state in general after a shooting.

[srothstein]

I have lost count of the number of times I have drawn my weapon, or even aimed it at someone. I can't tell you what I was thinking because I wasn't in most cases. I had reverted to training and responded just how taught. That is the one advantage I have over a CCHL is the extensive training.

Now, in an actual shooting, things get a little different and everyone will react differently. There truly are people who react like Dirty Harry and keep eating his hot dog while shooting. There are people who are great until the situation stabilizes and then fall completely apart. And there are people in the middle, which is where I fall. In my shooting, my first thought was to go arrest the guy. I pulled up and started to run around the front of the patrol car in tackle and arrest mode. As I got to the right front corner, I saw him standing there with the pistol in his hand, raised up by his right ear. The next thing I know, I am behind the front of my car repeating the training in my head - keep the engine block and tires between us that will stop bullets. I am yelling for him to drop his weapon as I am aiming at him. My body reacted to decades of training and I cocked the hammer (S&W Model 65 revolver), then thought of the academy and them saying to always fire double action. I lowered the hammer and then squeezed off the round. And then I cocked the hammer and lowered it again getting ready for the second shot. My partner had arrived and was also aiming and actually fired before I did. I cannot remember ever making a conscious decision to shoot either, just the training officer's words about how going through my head.

After the shooting, we disarmed the guy and cuffed him, and notified everyone and their brother (well it seemed that way). I remember keeping calm and working until the second sgt showed up and they separated us and we had time to calm down. By that time there were about 10 officers there. I was still thinking like a cop and was talking to the sgt and even told him to remember to read me my rights.

Then I started replaying the event in my mind and criticizing my actions. DO NOT DO THIS. One thing that almost caused me problems was my criticism was verbal. I said that I had messed up and the sgt heard me and thought I meant the shooting. Actually, I had been referring to the tactics of jumping out of the car. I knew he was an armed robbery suspect and he had just drawn on another officer before turning and running. I should never have started to run up on him. But just being heard saying I messed it up would have been enough if I had a different sgt (one in particular I know of) or the shooting had been less clear cut.

After talking with other officers who have been in shootings, I found that my reactions were well within the norm for a first time shooting. Officers who had been in multiple shootings tended to get much more like Harry Callahan about it after the third or fourth. I do know some officers who were that calm with their first and some who never got used to it who had been in more than one.

I think the best way to help stay calm is to start running scenarios in your mind. We do this all the time in training, and I really do think it helps. It helps you react just like you did in trainign since you do stop thinking most of the time, and it helps you get over the effects since it is not as much a novelty when it does happen. Nothing can truly fully prepare you for it, but this will help.

[KBCraig]

Steve, how did you feel when you realized an innocent air conditioner had died?

[aandpman]

I have not drawn nor pulled the trigger.
I am not a lawyer.
I am not a pastor.
I do have some views regarding being a christian and not believing in killing.
I also am a believer, and have had to reconcile my beliefs with carrying and the potential to be forced to kill.
What I am about to write is an over-simplification of what I believe but I want to be brief.....
In the Old Testament, a lot of people have made blanket statements that God (who is LOVE) was inconsistent because he either killed or had people killed. The key behind the matter is to remember covenant. God was in covenant with Israel and thus there were some promises that had been made, that He would protect them. He had to. He intended to bring a redeemer into the world through Israel. If they had been wiped out, the promise that He had made to Abraham would have been unkept, God would have been a liar, and satan is the father of liars. it was a legal duty on God's part. God cannot lie.

Moving forward several thousand years, we live in a day in which little is known about covenant. People make promises all the time and routinely break them...

I love people and would minister to anyone anytime the opportunity presents itself. I believe the Ten Commandments (still not that great at keeping them). In the Hebrew, the meaning of "Thou shalt Not Kill" is literally "You Shall Do No Murder".

I am, however, in covenant with my wife. I made promises to her the day we married to protect her. Because I am in covenant with HER, and NOT with the bad guy, I have a sworn covenant duty to keep the bad guy from hurting her. I am also her almost sole means of support. If the bg took me out, and I didn't do what I could to prevent that, then I also don't feel that I am living up to my covenant with her.

One big point here to remember is the key word "murder". If I have to protect myself or my family, it will not be done with malice or hatred in my heart. To do so WOULD invite a spirit of murder, and that would go against the 10 C's.
To be in battle as a soldier, and kill as a part of the covenant you swore when you entered the service is not doing murder. However, one who then becomes obsessed with the idea, and puts much thought into new and exciting ways to kill more effectively, enjoys it, and does it with hatred in his heart for the enemy would possibly be guilty of doing murder. The same goes for the policeman.

Again, I have not been in a tactical or combat situation, but my hope is that if it ever came down to that, I would not kill in hatred (yes there is adrenaline and anger, that's probably natural). However, one can walk in love and do what it takes to protect himself. If the bg only ends up being held until the police arrive, I should HOPE that I could at least inform him that there is a God who loves him and that he doesn't have to live the way he is living. He may be lucky enough to still do some time in the pokey or the hospital - those are consequences of his actions - but at least he's had the opportunity to hear.

You can protect yourself and your family and not walk in hatred.

Anyone who is a believer and does not wrestle with these questions should have a look inside to assess his walk with God. I cannot speak for the ones who don't believe as I do.

Hope this ranting helps out...

-aandpman

[CHL/LEO]

In regards to drawing my weapon I'm kinda like Steve, it's happened so much that it's now just a non event. If I recall correctly, the first couple of times it happened I replayed the event over and over in my mind just critiquing and playing "what if" scenarios. After a while though you don't even think about it really, other than asking yourself did I draw soon enough, or what would I have done different. Prior to leaving the scene it's history and you're off to the next call. Even late at night when I'm driving home after a shift I don't even think about it. In fact, reading this post if the first time in years that I've even given it any thought. Probably a lot of this just has to do with being an officer in Dallas where we have to deal with these type of situations more frequently than in other areas - especially if you work nights in certain sections of our fine city.

I've never been involved in a shooting so I can't personally respond to that. However, for several years I worked with a partner that had been involved in three separate shootings and based upon our conversations he handled it well. I will tell you though that in having spoken with him and other officers on our department that have been involved in shootings, that there will be a period of time where they "process the event" and it may take months before they are acting anything like they were prior to the shooting. I speculate that what really goes on in the mind of someone that shoots another person is only truly known to that individual. What they share with others, including spouses, coworkers, and psychiatrists is probably not everything that they felt (or still feel). I think we as human beings try to cope as best we can and then get to some sort of normalcy in our lives.

[srothstein]

Steve, how did you feel when you realized an innocent air conditioner had died?

Hey, it wasn't innocent. I yelled "Freeze" and it kept running. And it was ruud, too.

And for those who had not heard my shooting story before, Kevin is referring to the fact that I hit the 10-ton air conditioner that was behind the suspect at the time. My partner's shot had moved him sideways as I was shooting. The detectives figured I was so focused on the pistol in his hand, I would have hit it (my round hit the backstop 5'6" off the ground and the point of impact angle showed it went where he had been standing).

[SIGnage]

I have never drawn or used a gun in self defense, but I have been in a life or death situation.
My girlfriend and I, in seperate cars were on our way home from a wedding. I was the Best Man and she was she Maid of Honor. I remember a truck coming up behind us really fast, it passed my girlfriend who was following me, and dropped in behind me. The truck started flashing his lights at me, I was in the far right lane, and didn't know what he wanted. I tried moving into the left lane to let him pass on the right, he followed me into that lane. I then merged back to the right and again he did the same, riding just inches off my bumber flashing his lights and honking his horn. At this point I am getting
scared. I hit the gas and put some distance between us. Watching in my rear view mirror, I saw my girlfriend pass the truck and speed up to catch up with me. At this point I was even more scared as now she had put herself in harms way with this trucker. Our speed eventually put us far ahead of the truck, and we took our exit off the intersate. We pulled into a gas station and parked side by side. We were talking about what had just happened when the truck pullled up, stopped on the road and blocked both exits from the station. A few seconds later I heard two loud bangs. My first thoughts were that the truck had backfired, but when I turned to look, there was a man pointing a gun at me, ordering me to get out of the car.
He walked up to my window, shoved the gun against my forehead and again ordered me out of the car. I got out of the car asking him what was the matter. He said I had tried to kill him by trying to run him off the road. I tried to reason with the guy. At this time, my girlfriend started to get out of her car, he wheeled his gun in her direction and told her to get back in.
He then hit me twice with his gun, The first time broke my nose so badly, it was moved directly below my eye. The second hit gave me a severe concusion. My adrenalin was pumping so hard that I never lost consciousness or even fell off my feet. I didn't even feel the hits that I just took, or know that my nose was broke. I was fearing for my life and my girlfriends. At this time he turned his attention to my girlfriend, he walked to her window and put his gun to her head ordering her to now get out of the car. At this point I knew I had to try something, else if I didn't we were both going to die. As his attention was away from me, I started to make my move towards him. He either sinced or heard my movement and turned with his pistol pointing straight at me. I felt at that moment that I was dead, but suddenly, just as he had turned to face me, he raised boith his hands in the air and said "I don't want any trouble". An Armed security guard who was across the street at a Hotel had heard the shots and called it in. He was the first on the scene. The trucker quickly surrendered the gun to the security guard. Just moments later the police showed up. I was in a state of shock at what had just happened. All I knew or cared about at that moment was that my girlfriend and I were still alive. The Police made a hasty and wrong assumption, they assumed that I was the gunman and that the trucker had dissarmed me. The Police were handcuffing me, while the trucker was walking around free. When my girlfriend saw what was happening she started screaming at the cops, "YOU'VE GOT THE WRONG GUY". I guess this either embarrased the police or angered them that the assailant was walking free while the victim was being handcuffed, that three of them tackled the trucker hard, slamming him face first into the cement. After the trucker was in custody, an officer came back to me and removed the handcuffs, and apologized, I remember telling the officer that no apologies are neccessary. I said Thank you. At this point the police were asking me and my girlfriend what had happened when I noticed the cops were looking at me funny, they asked me, has you nose always been that crooked? I said what do you mean, and reach for my nose, it was not there, or at least where it was supposed to be.I found it below my eye. I said oh man he broke my nose. I looked down and my tux was covered in blood and also had a gushing wound on my head. They told me that I needed to go to the hospital and get that taken care of. I opted to have my girlfriend drive me in my car as it was loaded down with wedding presents, and I didn't want it to be left there. The police asked us to come to the police station after we were finished at the hospital, but when I got to the hospital I found out I had a cracked skull as well. I was admitted to the hospital and the police came the next day to take my statement.
I later met with the security guard when he came to visit me in the hospital. I could never thank him enough. He said that he was just as scared as I was when he saw the man standing there pointing a gun at me. Apparently the trucker thought the security was a policeman, which is why he surrendered the way he did.
Anyway, after going through this experience, I got one question answered. That is could I take a life, if it meant saving mine or my families lives? The answer is yes I can. And I don't think I would have any remorse for acting in self defense. I feel I would only have remorse if I fail to take action.

[casingpoint]

Got to be Houston.

[glockowner]

I have never drawn or used a gun in self defense, but I have been in a life or death situation.
My girlfriend and I, in seperate cars were on our way home from a wedding. I was the Best Man and she was she Maid of Honor. I remember a truck coming up behind us really fast, it passed my girlfriend who was following me, and dropped in behind me. The truck started flashing his lights at me, I was in the far right lane, and didn't know what he wanted. I tried moving into the left lane to let him pass on the right, he followed me into that lane. I then merged back to the right and again he did the same, riding just inches off my bumber flashing his lights and honking his horn. At this point I am getting
scared. I hit the gas and put some distance between us. Watching in my rear view mirror, I saw my girlfriend pass the truck and speed up to catch up with me. At this point I was even more scared as now she had put herself in harms way with this trucker. Our speed eventually put us far ahead of the truck, and we took our exit off the intersate. We pulled into a gas station and parked side by side. We were talking about what had just happened when the truck pullled up, stopped on the road and blocked both exits from the station. A few seconds later I heard two loud bangs. My first thoughts were that the truck had backfired, but when I turned to look, there was a man pointing a gun at me, ordering me to get out of the car.
He walked up to my window, shoved the gun against my forehead and again ordered me out of the car. I got out of the car asking him what was the matter. He said I had tried to kill him by trying to run him off the road. I tried to reason with the guy. At this time, my girlfriend started to get out of her car, he wheeled his gun in her direction and told her to get back in.
He then hit me twice with his gun, The first time broke my nose so badly, it was moved directly below my eye. The second hit gave me a severe concusion. My adrenalin was pumping so hard that I never lost consciousness or even fell off my feet. I didn't even feel the hits that I just took, or know that my nose was broke. I was fearing for my life and my girlfriends. At this time he turned his attention to my girlfriend, he walked to her window and put his gun to her head ordering her to now get out of the car. At this point I knew I had to try something, else if I didn't we were both going to die. As his attention was away from me, I started to make my move towards him. He either sinced or heard my movement and turned with his pistol pointing straight at me. I felt at that moment that I was dead, but suddenly, just as he had turned to face me, he raised boith his hands in the air and said "I don't want any trouble". An Armed security guard who was across the street at a Hotel had heard the shots and called it in. He was the first on the scene. The trucker quickly surrendered the gun to the security guard. Just moments later the police showed up. I was in a state of shock at what had just happened. All I knew or cared about at that moment was that my girlfriend and I were still alive. The Police made a hasty and wrong assumption, they assumed that I was the gunman and that the trucker had dissarmed me. The Police were handcuffing me, while the trucker was walking around free. When my girlfriend saw what was happening she started screaming at the cops, "YOU'VE GOT THE WRONG GUY". I guess this either embarrased the police or angered them that the assailant was walking free while the victim was being handcuffed, that three of them tackled the trucker hard, slamming him face first into the cement. After the trucker was in custody, an officer came back to me and removed the handcuffs, and apologized, I remember telling the officer that no apologies are neccessary. I said Thank you. At this point the police were asking me and my girlfriend what had happened when I noticed the cops were looking at me funny, they asked me, has you nose always been that crooked? I said what do you mean, and reach for my nose, it was not there, or at least where it was supposed to be.I found it below my eye. I said oh man he broke my nose. I looked down and my tux was covered in blood and also had a gushing wound on my head. They told me that I needed to go to the hospital and get that taken care of. I opted to have my girlfriend drive me in my car as it was loaded down with wedding presents, and I didn't want it to be left there. The police asked us to come to the police station after we were finished at the hospital, but when I got to the hospital I found out I had a cracked skull as well. I was admitted to the hospital and the police came the next day to take my statement.
I later met with the security guard when he came to visit me in the hospital. I could never thank him enough. He said that he was just as scared as I was when he saw the man standing there pointing a gun at me. Apparently the trucker thought the security was a policeman, which is why he surrendered the way he did.
Anyway, after going through this experience, I got one question answered. That is could I take a life, if it meant saving mine or my families lives? The answer is yes I can. And I don't think I would have any remorse for acting in self defense. I feel I would only have remorse if I fail to take action.

HOLY COW! what a story, i was on the edge of my seat. that's the exact scenario we think of all the time and i'm glad you lived to tell. happy b-day!

[killerfly128]

I know this is a sensitive subject, but most of us have never been in these situations. For those of you that have drawn your firearm, what were your feelings just prior to, and for awhile, afterwards? And for those of you who have actually fired your weapon, how was it coping with the aftermath? Not litigation-wise, but more the mental side. Last week I talked about this with a Dallas LEO, and we discussed how they get the training for the mental aspect of firing their weapons, both pre and post, and the consequences of having done so, and we both wondered how a CHL holder would handle it.

I expect that many, if not all, of you who have fired your weapons might be hesitant to talk about it in this forum, but anything that could be shared might benefit the entire membership.

I Have only had to draw once. In short all that kept running through my mind was "dont be stupid (expletive removed), Dont be stuipd, just turn around and walk away" Dude had come up on my car in a dark parking garage with a knife in his hand. He said he thought i was someone else when he saw the gun, turned and walked away. After my hands were shaking a bit and i was angry at the guy for putting me into that situation.

[killerfly128]

I feel I would only have remorse if I fail to take action.

Glad you came out of it ok