Small of Back

[Carrots]

Everything I have read and been told about this so far has been bad, but having tried out a few positions earlier today this felt best. I only collected my pistol today and so I'm not set on any method yet, and obviously this method is no good for seated situations and so it would always need to be used in conjuction with another method which could be a problem in itself. That said has anyone got anything GOOD to say about SOB carry? I don't want to be plonker but there is a lot to be said for a reasonable ammount of comfort and I'm not on my behind to much. I know that compromise is implicit in any carry decision, but I'm a little tempted to give this a whirl.

Thanks folks

[Mike1951]

You sound determined. I would suggest holsters with the grip oriented upwards. That will at least prevent you sweeping your midsection during the draw.

[Carrots]

Thanks Mike. I'm not really determined, but I am rather wary of just buying the 'it's a bad idea' mantra without at least hearing of the potential plus's (which it must have, with comfort clearly being #1). The risk of falling on your back is indeed a risk, but then so are most things. I guess I'm just still young enough to eschew the idea of cotton wool living (for better or worse). I'm not sold on anything yet, and I am keeping an open mind (although I do not want carrying to become a chore which it will do if I'm wandering around in discomfort). Can anyone else either talk me into, or against this? I probably have a four month wait on my plastic and so this is hardly urgent, but I will be trying out various things at home for a few weeks. Obviously wandering around the house doing this will be rather a skewed 'road test' as it will probably work just fine, and with that said there will be no point in going through the motions of this if I can be persuaded that it is a bad idea for the real world before I start.

[Skiprr]

Can anyone else either talk me into, or against this? I probably have a four month wait on my plastic and so this is hardly urgent, but I will be trying out various things at home for a few weeks. Obviously wandering around the house doing this will be rather a skewed 'road test' as it will probably work just fine, and with that said there will be no point in going through the motions of this if I can be persuaded that it is a bad idea for the real world before I start.

Of all possible waist-area carry positions, SOB is my least favorite. IMHO, it has very little going for it, and a whole lot that's problematic.

Without going into a lot of detail here, I can at least bullet my reasons for you...and I'll leave out "what if you fall on your back"; I believe that's the weakest of the reasons against, anyway.

Something I firmly believe CHLs should train for, but seldom do, is close-quarters defense. Statistics show that in an outside-the-home scenario, up to 80% of the encounters will launch at distances of 6 feet or less. What you want to develop is a combat drawstroke that has the lowest probability of being fouled by a bad guy grabbing your arm or jamming your body. That means a drawstroke with the fewest number of moving parts and the greatest degree of joint integrity. Speed doesn't hurt, either.

Again it's only MHO, but small-of-back carry is the worst possible choice under those conditions. It has more moving parts to the drawstroke than any other waistband carry option. Try it in slow motion, conscious of all the arcs and distances your hand and the muzzle of your pistol are traveling. To bring the gun to bear in a retention-fire position (indexed against your ribcage below you pectoral muscle and canted slightly outward) from a three-o'clock carry, the muzzle will travel somewhere between 7 and 12 total inches. My guess on an SOB draw is that the muzzle will travel somewhere between 24 and 34 inches.

Too, to get to the firearm you need to articulate the shoulder, elbow, and wrist. You essentially have to put yourself into a wrestler's arm-lock for a moment. Compared to a draw from three o'clock (and I just use that for comparison because it's right on the mid-line), fouling an SOB draw requires much less precise timing, and virtually no strength. All the bad guy really has to do is put his hand on your elbow once your forearm is behind your back, and he's basically just taking advantage of the arm-lock you voluntarily put yourself in.

If you ever have to fight to retain your gun in holster, anything farther back than a four o'clock position leaves you pretty much out in the cold. You have no body parts readily available to clamp down on the weapon or block access to the grip. Your elbow and forearm are your friends if this ever happens, and SOB carry leaves you with only one real option: get away. If you get tied up in a clinch, you really have no way to protect that gun.

Also keep in mind that it's probably more common today than it was 10 years ago for the wolves to travel in packs. You're probably not going to be shaken down by a lone homeless guy with a knife; it's likely going to be two or more punks working together to rob you to get drug money. Multiply by two the concern over the ability to foul a drawstroke and to retain the gun in holster.

If you SOB carry with the pistol heavily canted toward your strong side, this next is less of an issue. The first rule of a reliable drawstroke is securing a solid, three-finger master grip on the gun before it comes out of the holster. Under the stress of a life-threatening encounter, the last thing you want is to bobble the draw and drop your gun...or worse, fumble it and end up shooting yourself. If you carry SOB with a pretty much vertical cant, the only way to get any grip at all on the gun is to articulate your wrist pretty much as far as far as it will go, and you've got to sweep your hand underneath the concealment garment but between the gun and your back before you can even attempt that. With a three o'clock carry, the meat of your hand is outside the gun. With SOB, you have to get the meat of your hand between your body and the gun.

So with SOB carry, I'd say you have two important mechanical factors working against you in trying to satisfy that first rule of a reliable drawstroke.

Once you obtain a grip on the gun--under extreme stress, remember (there's a recent Topic on this): your adrenal gland just did it's thing and your blood pressure went through the roof, your heart and respiration spiked, your skin went a lighter shade of pale because the peripheral blood vessels contracted, and you've lost some of your fine motor control--you now have to get the gun out of the holster, around your body (your arm sticking out like a chicken wing), then swing your elbow in and rotate the gun to bring it generally on target...all the while, hopefully, without dropping the thing or letting the muzzle sweep your body or that of a possible bystander.

All in all, not the best recipe to keep Murphy and his laws at bay.

Last up is the matter of training and practice. You can certainly dry-fire in your home from SOB all day long, but live fire is another matter. I've had the good fortune to take courses from a number of different trainers and organizations, and SOB carry is usually disallowed due to the inherent safety hazard of that long, circuitous muzzle sweep. Likewise, practical shooting sports like IDPA prohibit SOB for the same reason.

Your goal should be to ingrain your drawstroke to the level of unconscious competence--where you can execute it perfectly without thinking, whether standing still or on the move--and choosing SOB means that you will be limiting your ability to train and practice.

As always, my opinions are entirely free. So you get exactly what you pay for.

[Originalist]

I have a Springfield Armory XD9SC and a crossbreed SOB holster that provides a strong cant to your strong side. This has been my primary carry method for almost 5 years. The only time it has been uncomfortable is long car rides (anything more than 30 min or so). This is my primary carry method because I have found SOB is the easiest to conceal in TShirts. Now, I have practiced different scenarios that could arise that would warrant use of force and feel pretty comfortable with it.

With any draw, or carrying a weapon for that matter, spacial positioning is key, even at other carry positions. I have practiced "reaching for my wallet" and coming back w/ a firearm. I have also practice "shooting from the hip" which means shooting before extending your arms and coming on sight (requires use of pointer finger actually pointing at your target) as is a No Other Option tactic for me. This method is somewhat reliabe at close range.

I would not openly carry in this position but part of concealed means "element of surprise"

[Excaliber]

Everything I have read and been told about this so far has been bad, but having tried out a few positions earlier today this felt best. I only collected my pistol today and so I'm not set on any method yet, and obviously this method is no good for seated situations and so it would always need to be used in conjuction with another method which could be a problem in itself. That said has anyone got anything GOOD to say about SOB carry? I don't want to be plonker but there is a lot to be said for a reasonable ammount of comfort and I'm not on my behind to much. I know that compromise is implicit in any carry decision, but I'm a little tempted to give this a whirl.

Thanks folks

I have to second Skiprr's post.

Very few LEO's use this method for the reasons Skiprr outlined.

There are always exceptions for individual circumstances, but SOB is not in the top 3 or 4 methods of off duty carry in most agencies.

LEO's are at least as interested in comfort as anyone else, because many of them are required to carry off duty, so there may be a hint here about the wisdom of this carry method when better options are available.

[longtooth]

Personally agree w/ skiprr above.

2 of our Church members love it though.
One even has no problem w/ setting for long periods w/ his.

As far as sweeping yourself w/ it on draw:
Proper draw there (as w/ a shoulder draw) will not sweep you are any one else.
As your gun comes out of the holster barrel should stay toward the ground & an arc made around your side. From 3:00 presentation is the same. THere is no reason to "sweep" self w/ a SOB or Shoulder draw.

Again I dont care for it but know some that do.

Stay safe & good

[flintknapper]

You sound determined. I would suggest holsters with the grip oriented upwards. That will at least prevent you sweeping your midsection during the draw.

Anyone sweeping themselves from a SOB presentation is simply doing it wrong!

With either orientation...the muzzle of the weapon should be vertical (pointed toward the ground) and the weapon should trace the outline of the body until you reach your mid line where the mechanics of a strong-side 3 O' Clock draw-stroke take over.

No sweeping of the body either way.


Edit: Ha....LT, you type faster than me.

[rokclimbertx]

SOB is my usual method of carry... I find it very comfortable...As mentioned above, proper draw technique alleviates any problem...

Here's the holster I'm using with my XD9sc... DM Bullard Texas Conceal Carry...

http://estore.websitepros.com/1565531/C ... ceal+Carry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[The Annoyed Man]

For me personally, I wouldn't want to carry SOB, even if it were more comfortable, for the following reason...

I carry a 1911, and I am left handed. Thus, the safety lever that matters to me is protected from inadvertent contact by facing inward, against the holster backing, where it cannot be accidentally switched off. However, the left-side safety lever is exposed. With the pistol on my strong (left) side, protected by my left arm from snagging on anything, the likelyhood that the safety would be accidentally disengaged is fairly minimized. Even so, it has happened to me once (and once only), and I did not discover it until that night when I drew the weapon to put it away for the night. So I have no realistic idea how long I had it that way. Fortunately, the trigger was protected by the holster from being accidentally pulled (not to mention the grip safety), so the gun could not discharge. However, I am afraid that carrying SOB might present more opportunities for the safety lever to get snagged and switched off, making a pistol draw from the SOB position more dangerous to myself or others.

So, I would say that the safety of SOB carry would be largely dependent on what kind of pistol you carry, and whether you are left or right-handed.

[longtooth]

You sound determined. I would suggest holsters with the grip oriented upwards. That will at least prevent you sweeping your midsection during the draw.

Anyone sweeping themselves from a SOB presentation is simply doing it wrong!

With either orientation...the muzzle of the weapon should be vertical (pointed toward the ground) and the weapon should trace the outline of the body until you reach your mid line where the mechanics of a strong-side 3 O' Clock draw-stroke take over.

No sweeping of the body either way.


Edit: Ha....LT, you type faster than me.

Type faster??? Probably not. Started 30 minutes before you to get it in first??? Probably. I like your description better of "tracing the outline of the body" & will use that in describing it in the future. See you are still teachin me stuff.
Thanks my friend.

[Skiprr]

SOB is my usual method of carry... I find it very comfortable...As mentioned above, proper draw technique alleviates any problem...

Just a note that the disadvantages I described above were all assuming a correct SOB draw pattern.

[Liberty]

I occasionally carry SOB. It is my preferred method of carry under certain conditions.

It allows my to carry my Beretta p92 inside the waistband without needing a bigger belt or pants. This type of carry for me provides a deep concealment that I don't believe I could achieve otherwise with this gun. There is no printing. and I have full access to both pockets.

It is the most comfortable carry while on two feet. It is reasonablly comfortable while sitting or driving for less than a couple hours at a time. It is less likely to be be bumped into while climbing or crawling into tight places.

I carry with the barrel vertical. and do not sweep myself on draw. This is obviously not as fast as 3:00 on the hip draw.

I use a nylon Uncle Mikes. The holster is not only cheap but padded. I don't believe falling on it creates an unreasonable hazard.

All this being said, I don't carry SOB often. Mostly I carry my Ruger at 3:00 Berreta gets carried back and forth between to my car via purse carry (in a canvas shopping bag or laptop bag). until I relocate it to an open console. Still I believe that SOB definatly has its place, and advantages.

[Carrots]

Thank you all very much indeed. I spent a couple of hours going through the motions today and the issue that has become the clearest to me is the time. I think that my draw stroke is OK but as mentioned above you are asking yourself to do a lot and it was tricky to draw quickly, correctly and safely even in the comfort of my own home (with the scariest thing in front of me a rather crowded clothes line). I'm going to practice some more but using an OWB at 4 I was much quicker and it was a much easier manoeuvre -no fumbling or uncertainty. That would be my first choice, and not been allowed to train using the SOB method in the world is another slightly off putting element. Nevertheless I'm going to persevere to see if I can find both the speed and the confidence to make this practical, and if not I'll have plenty of time to get used to something else. A colder climate and a trench coat would make for a convenient escape route though

[Carrots]

A month on and I have decided to pass on this and have now ordered myself an IWB. I found myself a little too cackhanded to be able to draw quickly and confidently. All I need now is my licence......