Would it have been justified?

[dewayneward]

dewayneward wrote:
I just cant imagine ANYONE not soiling themselves when looking down the barrel of a gun ...

Some people can do it without flinching or hesitating. You can find countless stories of people who charged cops, sometimes multiple cops, when any rational person would have known he would be shot.

I can't get inside their heads, either; but there are plenty of them out there.

There are also thieves who literally think they own what they're stealing, and they will kill to keep it.

- Jim

And those are the people that make me not trust ANYONE and increase the liklihood of me shooting them early on in a confrontation. Its sad really, because your fate for doing it will be decided by 12 people in a nice air conditioned court room while the family of the fallen misunderstood kid is bawling. I have been repeatedly taught that people would rather kill you than talk to you and you just cant trust anyone of them. your guard has to be up 24/7. The OP showed considerable restraint. I would have had my gun drawn and if there was ANY indication that it was gonna go south, I would have stopped the threat.

Ok, I am rambling here.....its just the idea of charging someone with a gun or something like that is crazy. They are the reason why I am armed 24/7.

[redfish76]

Seems like we discussed this in my CHL class, but after looking through the materials, I don't really see anything on it. But what is the standard for drawing your gun? Can't you be charged with at least failure to conceal (perhaps worse) if you don't have justification?

Is there a statute that addresses this?

[seamusTX]

There is a problem with drawing when you do not have justification for shooting. I know of four people who were arrested for it. One was convicted under PC 46.035(a) - intentional failure to conceal.

However, all these cases were in situations where force was not justified, let alone deadly force; and two of them sounded like escalation from what I heard (second-hand reports).

When you are in the presence of multiple thieves who are brazenly breaking into a vehicle in broad daylight, you probably are a lot closer to justification in this gray area.

Besides, no one complained. People being what they are, it's possible that no one except the three individuals involved knew what was happening.

- Jim

[dewayneward]

btw-my hundredth post!!!

Besides, no one complained. People being what they are, it's possible that no one except the three individuals involved knew what was happening.

Yet another reason to be armed. People are either 1) wrapped up in the own little world or 2) they dont want to be bothered or get involved. This all reinforces the fact that you are on your own to protect yourself. Gone are the days of the white night saving the damsel in distress or thinking "he wouldnt dare try to hurt me, there are people around us".

I dont know if the OP mentioned it, but he didnt have the gun drawn and IN the bad guy's face. I am envisioning that he had it drawn and at his side or pointed towards the ground. I'll have to reread the account to make sure.

I really dont like the ide of waiting to draw until there is immediate danger. By then its too late. Mind you, I am not saying that we should be pointing down every person on the street or greeting every person at the door with the business end of a shotgun (ok, maybe the sales people), but when the ole spidey sense goes off its time to pull.

Say I am walking down the street and some folks switch directions or take action that doesnt appear normal and start walking towards me. I'll first try to do something to confirm their intent (start walking another direction and see if they trek with me) and if they fail that test then thats all she wrote.

[seamusTX]

There is something to be said for a carry method that allows you to draw without exposing your piece to God and everyone. It's not ideal, but it's better than dying with a full magazine.

BTW, the last time I seriously though I was going to be mugged, walking alone on a deserted street after dark, I stepped into the street and put my hand inside my jacket. The two gentlemen who had been trying to catch up to me while whispering made a hard right turn and went on their way.

Ya know, I do a lot of justifying why things are the way they are; but it annoys me that low-lifes can do anything from pull on your clothing to spit or throw bodily fluids on you, and all you can do is retreat and call 911. That's why situational awareness, non-violent conflict resolution, and avoidance are so important.

- Jim

[HGWC]

Yesterday I was eating at Wendy's and my alarm to my truck went off, I have a notification alarm that beeps the remote when its set off. So I went outside to see and there was a man in my truck trying to steal my Navigation-Radio. I did pull my gun and yelled for him to step away from the truck he looked at me and then ran off and got into another car and they drove off. At one point I was ready to pull the trigger, but I just felt like if he would just lay on the ground until the cops came I would be good. I mean taking a life over a radio I just could not justify though I have always said I would shoot them it just did not feel right. I think most of all it was the legal side would I be justified. The cop that came to do the report said I should have shot him, but he was young and seemed just eager to take a bad guy off the streets. Tell me what you all would have done shoot or not? Would it have been justified? Thanks David

First, this was a burglary under penal code 30.04, not just theft under chapter 31. The way I read it, you were justified in using force, but not deadly force, to stop the burglary in progress of your vehicle during the day time. Drawing a gun is force, but not deadly force. At night, you could potentially have used deadly force to stop the burglary and to stop him fleeing with your property. During the day or night, I don't see any provision to justify force, especially not deadly force, to stop the guy from fleeing unless he had your property. I would say had you shot him while fleeing during the day and without your property, you'd be in big trouble.

[HGWC]

There is a problem with drawing when you do not have justification for shooting. I know of four people who were arrested for it. One was convicted under PC 46.035(a) - intentional failure to conceal.

However, all these cases were in situations where force was not justified, let alone deadly force; and two of them sounded like escalation from what I heard (second-hand reports).

When you are in the presence of multiple thieves who are brazenly breaking into a vehicle in broad daylight, you probably are a lot closer to justification in this gray area.

Besides, no one complained. People being what they are, it's possible that no one except the three individuals involved knew what was happening.

- Jim

There's a problem with drawing when you don't have justification for using force. Shooting is deadly force. Drawing a gun is not deadly force.

Here we're talking about burglary. You are justified in using force, not necessarily deadly force, to stop a burglary in progress and to recover your property. I can't see where drawing a gun on a man in your car, burglary in progress, wouldn't be a justified use of force.

[seamusTX]

I can't see where drawing a gun on a man in your car, burglary in progress, wouldn't be a justified use of force.

I can't, either; but some DAs and police chiefs do not favor citizens protecting themselves or their property. They could use the letter of the law to make life difficult for the honest citizen.

Plenty of real-life examples of people being arrested without breaking the law at all have been posted in this forum.

- Jim

[nitrogen]

According to Texas law, Threat of deadly force = force, which might be legal in this situation.

The idea is, that it's rarely a good idea to produce a weapon when it'd not be legal to use it, but I would not make those decisions for anyone else.

In this case, nobody got hurt, and no property was stolen, so I say everything came out OK.

[hi-power]

I can't see where drawing a gun on a man in your car, burglary in progress, wouldn't be a justified use of force.

I can't, either; but some DAs and police chiefs do not favor citizens protecting themselves or their property. They could use the letter of the law to make life difficult for the honest citizen.

Plenty of real-life examples of people being arrested without breaking the law at all have been posted in this forum.

- Jim

Jim,

What about the "big screwdriver" that the BG had in his hand? Wouldn't that be considered a deadly weapon and therefore the OP would be fully justified in pulling his handgun?

[Excaliber]

Yesterday I was eating at Wendy's and my alarm to my truck went off, I have a notification alarm that beeps the remote when its set off. So I went outside to see and there was a man in my truck trying to steal my Navigation-Radio. I did pull my gun and yelled for him to step away from the truck he looked at me and then ran off and got into another car and they drove off. At one point I was ready to pull the trigger, but I just felt like if he would just lay on the ground until the cops came I would be good. I mean taking a life over a radio I just could not justify though I have always said I would shoot them it just did not feel right. I think most of all it was the legal side would I be justified. The cop that came to do the report said I should have shot him, but he was young and seemed just eager to take a bad guy off the streets. Tell me what you all would have done shoot or not? Would it have been justified? Thanks David

Others have done a good job of outlining the applicable law here, and the circumstances do not appear to support lawful use of deadly force in the situation you described.

Even though you weren't sure exactly what level of force the law allowed under the circumstances, you made a good decision primarily because you have a good moral compass. That paid off in spades because it kept you from using unlawful force that would have changed the rest of your life for the worse.

My personal rule of thumb that has kept me on the right side of both my conscience and the law for over 35 years of LEO and civilian carry is: Deadly force is used only when there is no other reasonable way to protect an innocent person from serious injury or death. This complies with virtually every use of force law I've ever seen anywhere in the US. Yes, I know it's a stricter standard than the law in some cases, particularly with respect to night time theft in Texas and castle doctrine provisions here and in several other states, but I'm not looking for an excuse to shoot someone, and it's a choice that works for me.

Self defense is not an all or nothing proposition, and my stance should not be misinterpreted to mean that I'm not prepared and willing to take appropriate action to protect myself and my property. It just means that I'll use options other than deadly force to do so whenever they are reasonable and available.

[seamusTX]

What about the "big screwdriver" that the BG had in his hand? Wouldn't that be considered a deadly weapon and therefore the OP would be fully justified in pulling his handgun?

A screwdriver can be a deadly weapon, but it's a judgment call (unlike a knife or gun, which is always a deadly weapon).

I'm not faulting anything the OP did. I'm just trying to point out some of the ways that these situations can go against the honest citizen.

- Jim

[USA1]

Self defense is not an all or nothing proposition, and my stance should not be misinterpreted to mean that I'm not prepared and willing to take appropriate action to protect myself and my property. It just means that I'll use options other than deadly force to do so whenever they are reasonable and available.

well said

[joe817]

Self defense is not an all or nothing proposition, and my stance should not be misinterpreted to mean that I'm not prepared and willing to take appropriate action to protect myself and my property. It just means that I'll use options other than deadly force to do so whenever they are reasonable and available.

well said

I'll add: "My personal rule of thumb that has kept me on the right side of both my conscience and the law for over 35 years of LEO and civilian carry is: Deadly force is used only when there is no other reasonable way to protect an innocent person from serious injury or death."

Precious words of wisdom. Thank you.

[boomerang]

IMO , you can always replace "stuff" , but you cant replace your life.

That's a very good reason to shoot the criminal before he can hurt you.