AZ moves to allow carrying in bars

[mr.72]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090628/ap_ ... ns_in_bars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TX needs to move in this direction.

[joe817]

I agree.

This is interesting, from the news story: "In May, the House overwhelmingly approved a bill that would permit gun owners to keep a weapon out of sight in a locked vehicle in a parking lot or garage. That would override employers that ban weapons on their property". Interesting......and frustrating.

This is even more interesting: "Last week, a Senate committee approved a bill that would allow Arizonans to carry concealed weapons without state permits, despite objections from law enforcement. " I'm not sure about that one. I'm leaning towards it's not a good idea.

[Purplehood]

Sounds like AZ is going full-tilt Libertarian.

[mr.72]

Sounds like AZ is going full-tilt Libertarian.

if it were not the only place in North America hotter than TX and with fewer trees, I'd be moving there.

[dicion]

Sounds like AZ is going full-tilt Libertarian.

Woot. Big fan of Libertarianism :)
I think Texas definitely needs to follow in the footsteps ;)

[frazzled]

Legally I think its ok.

However, if I were a private bar owner I would immediately post the legally required notice prohibiting firearms in the establishment. Firearms and booze=bad.

[mr.72]

Firearms and booze=bad.

Uhh, but for the guy who is usually in the bar because I am playing in the band, who doesn't drink, and who prefers to be armed loading $10K worth of equipment in and out of the car in the alley, I would say, there's a lot more to it than firearms and booze = bad.

Firearms and children = bad, ban guns in schools?
Firearms and road rage = bad, ban guns in cars?
Firearms and idiots = bad, so we should ban guns for the general public?

BTW this law makes in AZ makes it illegal to be carrying and drinking. So the problem of firearms and booze goes away, per the law.

[frazzled]

I respect your position. I just feel the 51% requirements in Texas are one of the few pieces of intelligent legislation, well, ever. The libertarian in me says it should be legal as specifically put forward, the pessimist in me says thats fine, but I wouldn't want that in my bar. However, this is from someone who does not frequent bars in the first place, so your mileage may vary.

EDIT: I'd proffer my views are colored by all the "infamous gunfighter ended his career in a bar" and the old local bodycount which always had people eating it in a bar.

[ClarkLZeuss]

One of the best arguments I heard recently was a guy saying, "In my home I have several guns and several bottles of wine. And yet I have enough common sense not to mix the two. Nothing is preventing me from drinking and carrying a loaded firearm in my house except my own self-control. Why does the government believe I have no self-control outside of my home?"

I'm kind of neutral on this, but I think that guy made a good point.

[frazzled]

Because lots of people get shot in bars?
Because its effectively illegal in Texas to drink and carry?
Because the tempation will be extremely high to do so.

Bars were historically one of the earliest places limiting firearms. There was a reason.

[Liberty]

There was a time not so long ago that patrons to a bar would check their guns with the bartender. I've actually seen it done. It seemed so much civilized than banning guns from such places.

As to the libertarianism of Arizona, I think they would be "there" if it wasn't for the huge influx of immigrants from California. libertarianism is founded on the principle of indidiualism. natives in most western states have this as a Traditional value.. Bush and Obama have been the biggest promoters of libertarianism with their big government failures. Even some Democrats are looking at libertarian values these days.

[DEADEYE1964]

I respect your position. I just feel the 51% requirements in Texas are one of the few pieces of intelligent legislation, well, ever. The libertarian in me says it should be legal as specifically put forward, the pessimist in me says thats fine, but I wouldn't want that in my bar. However, this is from someone who does not frequent bars in the first place, so your mileage may vary.

EDIT: I'd proffer my views are colored by all the "infamous gunfighter ended his career in a bar" and the old local bodycount which always had people eating it in a bar.

I agree but this law in AZ is misunderstood. Az did not have the 51% rule so it was not legal for a CCW to carry in Chili's at lunchtime because they sold alcohol, it did not matter if their food sales were more than alcohol. I thought that was the most stupid law on the books. A person with no permit can open carry in the bank but a person with a CCW could not carry in Chili's because they sold alcohol. I agree the 51% rule in Texas is a good law.

[frazzled]

I agree but this law in AZ is misunderstood. Az did not have the 51% rule so it was not legal for a CCW to carry in Chili's at lunchtime because they sold alcohol, it did not matter if their food sales were more than alcohol. I thought that was the most stupid law on the books. A person with no permit can open carry in the bank but a person with a CCW could not carry in Chili's because they sold alcohol. I agree the 51% rule in Texas is a good law.

Agreed completely and that helps clarify. My comments concern the stereotypical bar or night club.

There was a time not so long ago that patrons to a bar would check their guns with the bartender. I've actually seen it done. It seemed so much civilized than banning guns from such places.

I'd be ok with that as well, and frankly way cool
I'm supportive of the law change, just wouldn't be keen on it myself if I owned a bar.

[mr.72]

Because lots of people get shot in bars?

...even though it is illegal to shoot someone?

Never mind whether it is legal to carry a gun in a bar, that's irrelevant. The fact that people get shot in bars is a GOOD REASON to allow those who may get shot AT to carry guns of their own to protect themselves from the CRIMINALS who are committing murder in bars.

This is the exact same old anti-gun argument. It doesn't change because it's a bar or because there is alcohol involved. I mean if guns and alcohol don't mix, then why not ban the alcohol in bars, since we have no Constitutional amendment that guarantees us the right to alcohol. Furthermore, it's the use of alcohol that is dangerous, not the carrying of guns. If you become intoxicated then there are all kinds of dangerous things you may be more likely to do, such as driving home or a litany of other things I could think of. So the problem is not guns, it's alcohol.

Because its effectively illegal in Texas to drink and carry?

But it's not merely effectively illegal, but explicitly an offense to shoot someone in Texas. So if that law is not enough to prevent people from shooting one another in bars, then why should some inferred vague between-the-lines opinion be strong enough to dissuade criminals from shooting people? It's not like some BG is going to go into a bar, looking for someone who they think is in there who they intend to kill or to commit a robbery or drug deal or whatever, but see the 51% sign and say "oh, fiddlesticks. I can't go in and kill my rival drug dealer in that bar because I can't legally carry my stolen gun into a bar. Guess I'll have to wait until he comes out onto the sidewalk to kill him, since that's more legal".

Because the tempation will be extremely high to do so.

Temptation do do what? Shoot someone in a bar? I admit it. I have never gone into a bar unless I happened to be working (as a musician). I have no idea whether it's natural to wind up wanting to shoot somebody once I go into a bar for purposes other than work. Maybe that's what happens. But I kind of doubt it.

As you pointed out, it's already illegal in Texas to be intoxicated while carrying. So you would be at extreme risk of violating that law if you were to carry your gun into a bar and then begin drinking. But likewise it's illegal to drive while intoxicated and we don't ban cars from parking within walking distance of bars. So if we can trust people to drive to and from bars, and therefore assume the risk that they may become intoxicated and run afoul of the law, kill someone with their car, etc., then why not carrying a gun? Certainly DUI is far more common and dangerous than is shooting someone while intoxicated.

On the contrary, the 51% law, just like any other law preventing law-abiding citizens from lawfully carrying guns absolutely anywhere, is a bad law. Whatever arguments that are made to support the 51% are the same arguments made to prevent guns on college campuses, schools, post offices, court rooms, etc. The fact is that anywhere people go, there is a chance that criminals are going to carry guns and put others at risk, and disarming the law-abiding people in any environment does not make them more safe.

[frazzled]

I don't buy it. Bars are a high crime area.
I support the AZ law change.
I also support the right of a bar owner to exclude firearms and would do so in that circumstance.
Are YOU against the right of the bar owner to exclude persons from his establishment?