Kleberg County SO stop without probable cause!

[iflyabeech]

I just spoke with his Lt. for over 10 minutes. I explained this and said I didn't want to do anything formal, but I would like it addressed. The Lt. was very understanding and said he would pull the tape and audio and do some corrective training with this officer who was still on new-guy probation.

Sounds good to me..

[jimlongley]

Oops, new guy.

That might do it right there.

I also suspect that at times the good officer's vision is not what it is supposed to be and he has to get that close to read your plate.

------------------------

A bunch of years ago, along the Rt 6 next to the Cape Cod Canal, I was doing some sight seeing on that scenic highway and was going from one overlook to another to get a better shot of the vista I was trying to get a picture of (the Sagamore Bridge). As I pulled out of one, they were about a quarter mile apart, my car started giving me problems and would not get up to speed. When the towing service got me to the garage they decided I had had a vapor lock, probably from stopping the car for just a short period of time and then starting it back up again - I was only at the first stop for just over a minute. By the time I was towed to the garage, the car started just fine - one of the few times I can think of being thankful for my AAA membership.

As I went from the one vista to the other, at about 30mph or less, a whole line of cars went by me in the passing lane, including a state trooper. As I got to the next vista I was unable to even keep the car running, so I just coasted into a parking space. As I got out of the car and raised the hood I started noticing a horn and siren blowing, and I looked op to see this troop car at the other end of the vista with a car he had apparently stopped, about 500 feet away, and the trooper was waving and yelling at me.

Unable to start my car, I walked up to the trooper, who continued to shout and wave the whole time I was trying to get my car started, and boy was he steamed by now. He lectured me about refusing a lawful order, and how he clocked me at more than 60mph a way back, and he was going to . . . and why didn't I bring my car up here because not doing so was very suspicious. Eventually he ticketed the other guy and then drove down and looked through my car and listened while I tried to get it started. He made me walk back down, while he drove.

At first I just tried to explain that I couldn't possibly have been doing 60 because I had just pulled out of the previous overlook and that the car had stalled during that brief run and now I couldn't start it, etc.

Eventually he gave me a warning, but the confrontation certainly spoiled my little jaunt up to the Cape.

Maybe part of what convinced him was that I offered to introduce my film to a court, unprocessed, as proof that I had just been at the previous vista, and the sun angle and barges in the canal would show just what time of day I took the picture, even if it didn't have a date stamp, and the pictures of my cousin (far enough away to kiss, actually my third cousin's daughter, my age) in Mattapoissett, MA that afternoon would even establish which day. I was ready to meet him in court.

I remain certain that he mistook my car for another that he saw, or maybe he didn't like sailors, I was in uniform.

What really frosted my cupcakes was that he wouldn't radio HQ to get AAA for me, I had to walk and find a pay phone. It was too late that evening when I left the garage to get to the Cape and back, so I skipped the trip and just went back to my cousins' house to spend the night, and back to my ship the next day.

[srothstein]

It still doesn't mean an LEO has the right to make something up in order to pull me over!!! I am a blond haired, blue eyed 30 something normal looking guy. I just don't get it...

I am not condoning anything the trooper did during your incident, but there are a couple points you might want to be aware of. First, the above description does make you a little unusual for Kleberg county. Blond haired, blue eyed, males might be more normal in Gillespie county (with its German heritage), but I am willing to bet they are a minority in Kleberg county.

Second, and probably much more germane to the actual reason for the stop, is that many of the drug couriers now are using rented cars. Thanks to the asset seizure laws having been used aggressively in the past few years, drug dealers have realized that cars can only be taken from their owners. Rental cars are cheap means for transporting stuff inside the US and do not include the threat of their own car being taken.

Lastly, while I do not agree with the tactic, nothing in the law requires the officer to tell you the real reason for the stop. Your lack of knowledge of the probable cause, even coupled with the statement from the officer, does not mean he did not have real probable cause for the stop. I think officers should not lie in most cases, but each officer makes their own decision. From your description of the conversation, combined with my above two points, I would say he was really checking to see if you were a drug courier or not. it sounds like you would fit a fairly common profile for some of the drug mule being used these days. Again, my opinion is that a profile is not grounds for a stop, but I am in the minority on that in law enforcement. And, I have to admit that I have stopped people for suspicion or to check them out, but it was usually based on more than what you have shown here and I also explained the truth of why I stopped them.

[flb_78]

DOG!!!! Slam on the brakes!!!

What officer? You didn't see that dog run out in front of me?

[KD5NRH]

DOG!!!! Slam on the brakes!!!

Rusted out hole in the floorboard and some random road debris to drop through it is a bit more subtle.

[jamullinstx]

Steve, I'm disappointed. Now being blonde-haired and blue-eyed is probable cause for a stop? And driving a rental car, oh my gosh!

[iflyabeech]

I am not condoning anything the trooper did during your incident, but there are a couple points you might want to be aware of. First, the above description does make you a little unusual for Kleberg county. Blond haired, blue eyed, males might be more normal in Gillespie county (with its German heritage), but I am willing to bet they are a minority in Kleberg county.

True that...but on 77...I grew up in Bishop...its not that unusual....(also, it was a Deputy, not a Troop)

Second, and probably much more germane to the actual reason for the stop, is that many of the drug couriers now are using rented cars. Thanks to the asset seizure laws having been used aggressively in the past few years, drug dealers have realized that cars can only be taken from their owners. Rental cars are cheap means for transporting stuff inside the US and do not include the threat of their own car being taken.

I talked with my good friend who is a trooper in the area...he mentioned this as well, but I think the guy had his mind made up before he could tell it was a rental car...

Lastly, while I do not agree with the tactic, nothing in the law requires the officer to tell you the real reason for the stop. Your lack of knowledge of the probable cause, even coupled with the statement from the officer, does not mean he did not have real probable cause for the stop. I think officers should not lie in most cases, but each officer makes their own decision. From your description of the conversation, combined with my above two points, I would say he was really checking to see if you were a drug courier or not. it sounds like you would fit a fairly common profile for some of the drug mule being used these days. Again, my opinion is that a profile is not grounds for a stop, but I am in the minority on that in law enforcement. And, I have to admit that I have stopped people for suspicion or to check them out, but it was usually based on more than what you have shown here and I also explained the truth of why I stopped them.

My trooper buddy agrees, but said I don't really fit the profile he looks for, to say the least! (He usually leads this DPS area with felony arrests and stolen vehicle recoveries)

I will follow up with his Lt. in a few days to see what is going on...The Lt. was not impressed with the officer from my description..I asked him to review the tape and judge for himself, and he sounded like he would!

[CompVest]

I think it is a shame that the LEO couldn't find something better to do with his time.

[roberts]

DOG!!!! Slam on the brakes!!!

What officer? You didn't see that dog run out in front of me?

[The Annoyed Man]

It still doesn't mean an LEO has the right to make something up in order to pull me over!!! I am a blond haired, blue eyed 30 something normal looking guy. I just don't get it...

Well I'm sorry, but along with Minnesota grandmothers of Norwegian extraction and Californian blond soccer moms, you match exactly the profile of a middle eastern airline hijacker or terror-bomber.

All I know is that, if someone raced up behind me at night and tailgated me for mile after mile on an otherwise clear highway, I would use my hands-free cellular device to phone 911 and tell them what was going on. I would also tell the 911 operator that I was video recording the incident with my cellphone in case the police needed it for evidence. I would add that I was emailing myself a copy of the video file in case I needed to share it with anyone else - such as the media...

[srothstein]

Steve, I'm disappointed. Now being blonde-haired and blue-eyed is probable cause for a stop? And driving a rental car, oh my gosh!

I did not say it was probable cause for the stop, just that it was part of the current drug courier profile for South Texas. Then I pointed out that the deputy may not have given his real reasons for the stop.

There is a current debate on whether or not meeting a drug courier profile is grounds for a stop. To the best of my knowledge, most officers say it is a reason to look closer but does not in and of itself justify the stop. But it has been pointed out that it is always easy for an officer to get real PC for the stop by following you. Our laws have become so intrusive that is it almost impossible for you to drive for more than a mile without violating some law, thus giving the officer PC. Of course, being of a libertarian bent, I personally dislike both the intrusive laws and the drug laws, but I am explaining the current legal states and not just my opinions.

So, if a person matches the description of a well proven profile for criminal activity, does the officer have grounds for a stop or not? That is the real debate going on in the courts and law enforcement community. We normally only hear the racial profiling part, but the truth has always included other parts to the profile.

[iflyabeech]

It still doesn't mean an LEO has the right to make something up in order to pull me over!!! I am a blond haired, blue eyed 30 something normal looking guy. I just don't get it...

Well I'm sorry, but along with Minnesota grandmothers of Norwegian extraction and Californian blond soccer moms, you match exactly the profile of a middle eastern airline hijacker or terror-bomber.

All I know is that, if someone raced up behind me at night and tailgated me for mile after mile on an otherwise clear highway, I would use my hands-free cellular device to phone 911 and tell them what was going on. I would also tell the 911 operator that I was video recording the incident with my cellphone in case the police needed it for evidence. I would add that I was emailing myself a copy of the video file in case I needed to share it with anyone else - such as the media...

Ahhh..this was in braod daylight! :) I can't believe I forgot to hit the voice recorder on my phone!! His Lt. called me back yesterday, but I missed the call...now playing phone tag!

[trdvet]

Law Enforcement doesn't need probable cause to conduct traffic stops, only reasonable suspicion.

[iflyabeech]

Law Enforcement doesn't need probable cause to conduct traffic stops, only reasonable suspicion.

whatever dude...point is they didn't have it!

[flintknapper]

Highway 77 between Robstown and the Valley is probably the most heavily patrolled highway in the country, as it's a major drug transportation route as well as used by illegal alien smugglers.

I work from time to time about 4 miles southwest of Ricardo, which is why I know that.

They stop a lot of cars based simply on profiles of probable drug carriers. Your complaint to the Kleberg county SO will likely fall of deaf ears - which doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

Theres your answer folks. Happens all over the place.

Nacogdoches PD task force was "famous" for this not too many years ago. Basically, if you were headed North on 59 in a "rental" (look for little green E sticker on bumper) you were going to be followed and likely stopped.


We can "what if" or "maybe he" all we want...but chances are great..it was a profile stop.