Almost had to draw last night

[Kythas]

Another thing, is Oktoberfest not posted 51%?

I saw no signs at all, either 51% or 30.06.

[Wisewr]

I think you handled it very well. I hate to think how I would have responeded in this situation with my wife and kids with me. It might not have been a good night for Mr. Pest. I know you found out he wasn't armed, but I like to go under the assumption that everyone is armed.

On the pepper spray thing, I struggle with that one on knowing if thats the best thing to do or not. Here's my thought, Mr. Pest comes up to you, just like in this scenario with hands in pockets and baggy pants possibly concealing a weapon, and you decied to pull out your pepper spray after the situation escelates. He sees you now reaching into your pocket and trying to draw something and his first thought is that your drawing a gun not pepper spray, so, already having his gun in hand in his pocket, draws and starts to fire. At this point your pretty far behind in the situation and Mr. Pest defintley has the upper hand at this point. Now, I know he didn't have a gun, but like we said, with hands in pockets and baggy pants, this could have easily been legit.

I guess my feelings are that if it's bad enough to pull pepper spray out, it more than likely is bad enough to pull your weapon. But, I'm no expert. Dawg the Bounty Hunter uses pepper spray only, no guns.

[timdsmith72]

Kythas,
I want to thank you for sharing this story with us. My wife wanted me to take her to Chaucer's in Addison last night. She saw me put on my gun when I was changing into some nicer pants. She said, "You don't need to wear that, we're just going to Addison. There are cops everywhere. If we were going to the Fair, then yeah, but not Addison."
I explained to her that bad things can happen to anyone at any time even in an area you consider "safe". I told her I didn't spend all the time, money, and range time getting my CHL just to leave my weapon at home. I'm going to have her read your story as soon as she gets back from the store. Thank you for sharing.

[snorri]

If you let the criminal shoot first, you're way behind the curve. I err on the side of my safety and I don't hesitate much before using pepper spray. No problems with the law yet.

Like someone said, if he keeps coming after I hose him down, that's going to help my case when I use deadly force. It hasn't come to that yet but I leave the house every day knowing it's a possibility.

[pdubyoo]

Kythas,

Thanks for posting your story. My heart rate was elevated just reading it. I'm glad things worked-out for you and the ladies, to get out of the area safely.

It's easy to second-guess ourselves after a situation like that. I'm not sure how I would have reacted. Your situation sure gives me a lot of real-life food for thought. I will be talking with my wife about your experience, and also about some of the advice from Excalibur and others, and we'll be re-thinking our plan.

As Proverbs 27:17 says, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another". This verse can be applied in so many areas of our lives.

-PW

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Kythas:

Kudos to you sir. I think all your actions were appropriate. You had a bad one on your
hands, and in Addison no less. To those forum members who are unfamiliar with Addison,
it is just north of the City of Dallas, and is primarily a town of office parks, stores, and not
too many residences. The low number of residences in the town tend towards upscale incomes.
It is not a place where you would be expecting to make draw/don't draw decisions.

So the robber came up from Oak Cliff, the "hood" side of the City of Dallas.

Kythas, it's telling that he went after you. He must have noticed your compromised mobility.

Robbers are predators and when they sense an easier mark, they can be on you like lint on a blue suit.

I'm glad you and the gals got away from this cleanly. Hope you heal soon for some scooter ridin'.

SIA

[Aggie_engr]

Would it have been legal to draw and present a firearm to ward this guy off? I certainly would have felt threatened to the level of presenting my firearm after the guy kept following you around, that is after the call to 911 is made. If he then sees that you are armed and takes note that it is pointed right at him and ignores it and keeps coming, then you know he has true criminal intent. Who willingly keeps walking towards a gun pointed right at them? And 10ft. is way too close for me. 21ft. rule?

-I believe presenting a firearm to discourage a criminal act is only the use of force. Actually firing is the use of deadly force. Am I correct?

[suthdj]

This situation is some like I asked about in the CHL class ,if this guy is unarmed and if he gets a hold of you he can take control of your weapon and use on you. So with that in mind what to do if the threat does not back down?

[der Teufel]

I keep telling myself that, in situations like the one described here, the first person to call 911 has a better chance of winning any after-action legal fights. That doesn't mean I will remember to do it should the time come. Discussions like this help to reinforce the idea, though. Thanks for posting!

Also, Excaliber's comments on making sure the person causing the confrontation isn't just a distraction are excellent.

I learned in the Army that sometimes it's good to be backed up against a wall or in a corner.

[casingpoint]

An off duty cop in your situation probably would have identified himself and told the suspect to get his hands up. If the suspect refused, the cop probably would have shot, and it would have been justified. For a cop. We're different, no matter what they say about self defense parity. But a cop isn't going to play around exercising restraint that could get him hurt out of fear of a bad shoot, so the guy was lucky it was you and the girls and not a cop he was stalking or he might be a gonner. Good riddance.

[C-dub]

I don't think an LEO would shoot unless there were another weapon visible. I think an LEO would have sprayed him if he continued to advance after the LEO identified him or herself and being ordered to submit.

Any LEO's here tonight?

[casingpoint]

Spray or taser is more likely. But how many times in the past twenty years has HPD had a shooting where a suspect merely reached for something in his pockets?

[pdubyoo]

I don't think an LEO would shoot unless there were another weapon visible. I think an LEO would have sprayed him if he continued to advance after the LEO identified him or herself and being ordered to submit.

You could be right, but the LEOs that I know don't carry spray or taser when they're off duty. They only carry their sidearm. In that case, run watcha brung, as they say at the drag strip. I'll pass along the OP to a couple of them, and get their feedback as to what they would likely have done.

[srothstein]

I wanted to point out the first and mos timportant thing was said in your first post. It was handled correctly and a win since everyone of the good guys (and even the bad guy) went home with no problems.

I also want to second everything Excaliber said. He beat me to most of it and added points I would not have (I usually don't remember to add the warning of the distraction though it is an important point).

I would probably have drawn my weapon after the first time I yelled stop and he kept coming. And, since I do not bluff with weapons, I would probably have fired the pistol after he refused to stop when I pointed the gun at him. Just my way, and I truly am not sure if it is legal in this case. As was pointed out, there is nothing in Chapter 9 that justifies the use of force against someone asking for a ride home. I would have pointed out that my fear was that he was attempting to commit a crime by his persistence and refusal to move away, but the law really does require the commission or attempt at the crime and not the fear of it. I think most cops, D.A.'s, and Texas juries would agree with me, but I have to recognize the wording of the law.

And, as an observation on CHL's in general, we really do need to practice calling 911 more often. When we get into a situation, our mind shuts down and we react. If we are confident and experienced in handling problems,w e do so. If we are with someone we trust to handle problems, we wait while they do (which is why the women did not call, but helped free his hands so he could handle the situation). But those of us who handle problems for a living are trained to call for help. Sometimes the training does not take, but we really do emphasize it in training. CHL's need to practice that also and have the person with them calling 911 while the incident is being handled. Probably the best example of this in practice is the current CPR training (we have all had it, right?). When you verify the emergency, the first thing you do is point to a specific person and tell them to call 911. In practice, we get confident and know we know what to do and they ofund people not calling 911. So, they have added it as the first step in rescuing people for that reason. We need to practice the same thing as a CHL.