Present CHL when not the driver

[jackj87]

Hey guys,

I was visiting my girlfriend in Austin a couple of weeks ago and had a random question pop into my head. I couldn't remember an answer to this so I thought what better place than to ask the knowledgeable forum.

If I am the passenger in her car and she gets stopped for, say a speeding ticket, am I required to give notice to the LEO that I am carrying? I would do it anyways just to avoid any problems. I just couldn't remember if I ever went over that in my class session.

I am usually very informed of such details of the law, but just couldn't remember if we ever discussed it.

Thanks for any responses.

[AEA]

You (AND the Driver) are not required in Texas to present your CHL when asked for ID if you are not carrying at the time.

If you ARE CARRYING AND asked for ID, then you MUST present your Driver's License and your CHL.

Most of us in Texas present our CHL & DL to the Officers when they ask for ID (as drivers) if we are carrying or not just as a courtesy.

If I was a passenger in a vehicle I would not offer any ID unless asked. Then after being asked, I would present my CHL and DL and inform the Officer if I was carrying or not.

Reason being......again, as a courtesy and also most Texas LEO's will see your CHL Status if they run your Drivers License or License Plate number of your registered vehicle. As a passenger in the car, even if I followed the law to the letter and was not armed and only give him my DL, if he ran it he may come back and ask me why I did not show him my CHL and ask me if I am carrying.

Then you may have the problem that the LEO does not actually know the law and only thinks he does and he may arrest you for not showing your CHL when asked for ID even though you were not carrying. You would be right, but you could take the ride and pay the price.......

[Mike1951]

If I was a passenger in a vehicle I would not offer any ID unless asked.

I agree. If you try to speak with the officer while he's dealing with the driver, you're likely to be told to keep quiet.

[carlson1]

As big as I am - I still try to not be seen in a stop.

[AEA]

If I had what you have in your wallet, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[chabouk]

I'm a little contrarian when it comes to civil rights, so if I was a passenger, I would resist showing any ID; none is required to be a passenger, and this is not a "papers please!" state. Unless you're under arrest, you have no legal obligation to identify yourself in any way.

Of course if the officer demands ID and you present it, you must also present your CHL if you're armed. Although I have to say, this would be the perfect time to not present the CHL, since there's no longer any penalty for not doing so.

I realize that resistance to police requests raises red flags, of the "If you've got nothing to hide..." variety. I find it incredibly sad that standing on one's rights is considered "suspicious behavior" these days.

I'm sure most people here have seen and cheered "Make Mine Freedom", the animated short produced by Harding College in 1948. One of my favorite parts: the defiant homeowner facing down three towering police officers on his front porch, demanding to know "Where's your warrant, flatfoot?"

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Link jumps directly to that short segment.)

Such open defiance and standing on Constitutionally-guarantee rights some 61 years later is frowned upon; we're advised to save arguments for the judge, not the cop. When someone is hassled, detained excessively, threatened, coerced, and possibly even arrested without grounds, we hear cries of "That's why I always show my ID when I'm asked!" And, sadly, such speakers mean to imply that they are doing the right thing, and the one who stands on his rights is somehow wrong.

[jackj87]

I'm a little contrarian when it comes to civil rights, so if I was a passenger, I would resist showing any ID; none is required to be a passenger, and this is not a "papers please!" state. Unless you're under arrest, you have no legal obligation to identify yourself in any way.

Of course if the officer demands ID and you present it, you must also present your CHL if you're armed. Although I have to say, this would be the perfect time to not present the CHL, since there's no longer any penalty for not doing so.

I realize that resistance to police requests raises red flags, of the "If you've got nothing to hide..." variety. I find it incredibly sad that standing on one's rights is considered "suspicious behavior" these days.

I'm sure most people here have seen and cheered "Make Mine Freedom", the animated short produced by Harding College in 1948. One of my favorite parts: the defiant homeowner facing down three towering police officers on his front porch, demanding to know "Where's your warrant, flatfoot?"

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Link jumps directly to that short segment.)

Such open defiance and standing on Constitutionally-guarantee rights some 61 years later is frowned upon; we're advised to save arguments for the judge, not the cop. When someone is hassled, detained excessively, threatened, coerced, and possibly even arrested without grounds, we hear cries of "That's why I always show my ID when I'm asked!" And, sadly, such speakers mean to imply that they are doing the right thing, and the one who stands on his rights is somehow wrong.

Chabouk, I am right there with you. I would rather not do anything except sit there and watch the lady friend try to get out of a ticket. Of course, if the LEO was interested in talking to me for some reason, then yes, I would inform him I have a CHL. Also, that I would be part of the small group of individuals that actually carry daily.

Appreciate the replies everyone. I was thinking pretty much what everybody has posted but was just wanted to clear up any confusions.

If I had what you have in your wallet, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Are you talking about a CHL? Sorry for the misunderstanding, brains is kinda lagging this morning.

[dewayneward]

I saw some of the responses and need to get something cleared up. A few posters mentioned that if you are asked by a LEO for ID, you dont have to give them the CHL if you are not carrying. I know that there was a law that went into effect on (I think) Sept or October 1st that stated that the PENALTY for not showing went away, but I thought that you were still required to show the LEO your CHL if asked for ID?

This may be one of those "well, the penalty is gone, so there is no reason to show it" type situations, but I wanted to be clear on if it is still a requirement to show the CHL regardless of carry status...just that the penalty is gone.

And I would hope that after all the hoopla we had to go through in order to get the CHL that we are all carrying 24/7

[AEA]

If I had what you have in your wallet, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Are you talking about a CHL? Sorry for the misunderstanding, brains is kinda lagging this morning.

No, I am talking about his retired LEO Badge!

[Keith B]

I saw some of the responses and need to get something cleared up. A few posters mentioned that if you are asked by a LEO for ID, you dont have to give them the CHL if you are not carrying. I know that there was a law that went into effect on (I think) Sept or October 1st that stated that the PENALTY for not showing went away, but I thought that you were still required to show the LEO your CHL if asked for ID?

This may be one of those "well, the penalty is gone, so there is no reason to show it" type situations, but I wanted to be clear on if it is still a requirement to show the CHL regardless of carry status...just that the penalty is gone.

And I would hope that after all the hoopla we had to go through in order to get the CHL that we are all carrying 24/7

You never had to show your CHL when presenting ID if not carryiong. Many folks (including me) would do it anyway as when they run you license it shows up and they might come back and ask if you are carrying. Also, some LEO's were misinformed and thought, like you, that you had to present it at all times when asked for ID.

Now, no matter what, you have no penalty for not showing it, but as you stated, you are still required by law to present it when carrying.

[Keith B]

If I had what you have in your wallet, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Are you talking about a CHL? Sorry for the misunderstanding, brains is kinda lagging this morning.

No, I am talking about his retired LEO Badge!

I was thinking you meant his preaching credentials. (j/k)

[USA1]

If I had what you have in your wallet, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Are you talking about a CHL? Sorry for the misunderstanding, brains is kinda lagging this morning.

No, I am talking about his retired LEO Badge!

I was thinking you meant his preaching credentials. (j/k)

I was thinking you meant the wads of cash.

[dewayneward]

From the 2007-2008 CHL handbook for Texas QA section

Q: If I am not carrying my handgun, must I still carry my license?
Under the concealed handgun law, you are only required to have your
license with you whenever you are carrying your handgun. However,
many license holders choose to carry their license with them at all
times.

I dont know why it didnt sink in till now

I guess since I carry 24/7, I dont ever leave home without it...kinda like amex but with better benefits!!!

[powerboatr]

You (AND the Driver)
Then you may have the problem that the LEO does not actually know the law and only thinks he does and he may arrest you for not showing your CHL when asked for ID even though you were not carrying. You would be right, but you could take the ride and pay the price.......

that's the problem right there.
leo's are not lawyers. they are to enforce the law not interpret or make rulings as if judge and jury. They are required to ask if they dont know, this could detain you while they check, but at least they would be doing the process correctly, its hard as heck to get out of jail even for wrong charges once your in the system than it is to sit by the road a few extra minutes and be told to go on your way.
if i am the passenger and asked for ID i would show both only if i was carrying, thats whats required. By all means don't argue, but do stand your ground in a positive manner. alot has to do with the situation, (time of day, why were you pulled over, etc) it could very easily escalate the wrong way, thats why we have judgment and common sense.

a small town near me asks for your ssn on a speeding ticket??? they have no way to ensure your ssn is not compromised so you refuse, this irritates the policeman but you are right and their system is broken, they already have your DL so its easy for them to pull the rest up online if they need more data. I think its driven to catch undocumented folks, which again is not really above board, but that is a whole nuther topic.

[HGWC]

If you ARE CARRYING AND asked for ID, then you MUST present your Driver's License and your CHL.

Yeah, just like the DPS MUST issue or deny CHL permits in a timely, good faith, manner under the same set of statutes. They MUST, but there's absolutely no penalty, so they won't. Now at least, we're in a position to offer the government the same courtesy in return.

Most of us in Texas present our CHL & DL to the Officers when they ask for ID (as drivers) if we are carrying or not just as a courtesy.

Most of us in Texas don't have a CHL. Most of us in Texas are free to carry our firearms in our cars without any restrictions or interference from the state and with little or no fear of drawing any heightened scrutiny from the police during a traffic stop. I would bet that most CHL holders don't display their CHL out of courtesy. I would bet that most CHL holders are like most other citizens. The last thing they would want to do is to tell a police officer during a traffic stop that they have a handgun within easy reach. I would bet that most CHL holders display their CHL permit reluctantly, and only because they have been mandated to under severe penalty of law. We know now that those severe penalties have been eliminated.

If I was a passenger in a vehicle I would not offer any ID unless asked. Then after being asked, I would present my CHL and DL and inform the Officer if I was carrying or not.

Reason being......again, as a courtesy and also most Texas LEO's will see your CHL Status if they run your Drivers License or License Plate number of your registered vehicle. As a passenger in the car, even if I followed the law to the letter and was not armed and only give him my DL, if he ran it he may come back and ask me why I did not show him my CHL and ask me if I am carrying.

Then you may have the problem that the LEO does not actually know the law and only thinks he does and he may arrest you for not showing your CHL when asked for ID even though you were not carrying. You would be right, but you could take the ride and pay the price.......

To me, just the mere fact that we are flagged to every police officer as CHL holders, and potentially armed, puts us at heightened risk of harassment, search and seizure, and false arrest. I'm inclined to worry more about that than courtesy to a cop who is most likely about to give me at least a $150 ticket. It makes more sense to me not to give a police officer any reason to believe that you are actually in possession of a firearm. Courtesy be damned. It's none of his business.

Just try to make sure it's not this Texas cop you're so concerned about being courteous to:

http://www.khou.com/news/Pepper-spray-l ... 14662.html

Pepper spray lands Texas man in jail on felony

WYLIE, Texas - A canister of pepper spray is now at the center of a Wylie dispute after a North Texas man found out what most people don't know, anyone who carries it can face a felony.

Jason Simpkins admitted he looked suspicious when a Wylie officer stopped him while he was driving his truck with a jet ski inside his lawn mowing trailer.

It happened early on the morning of August 22.

"I didn't have a problem with it at first," Simpkins said. "I gave him my drivers license. I thought, 'Okay, you know, it does look suspicious.'"

Police were curious if it was stolen, but Simpkins provided proof he owned the jet ski.

The officer then noted that Simpkins' speaker for his truck alarm positioned in his grill looked similar to a siren, though the officer never tested it to see what sound it emitted. News 8 did and heard a loud screeching sound, but no type of emergency tone.

Simpkins had what police thought were red lights in his grill, as well. But, again, no officer activated them. The "lights" don't illuminate, but are rather part of a laser detection system.

Officers also saw a police scanner and a law enforcement type light switch often used to activate emergency strobes. The scanner isn't illegal to have and no one tried switching on the lights, which would have illuminated nothing more than fog lights.

After an extensive check, police discovered Simpkins had no criminal warrants and no prior record.

But, 40 minutes and four officers later, questions continued.

"They said, 'Do you have any weapons.?'" he said. "I think out of respect for officers, if an officer says, 'Hey, do you have any weapons in your truck or your vehicle?' you should tell them. It's an officer safety thing."

Jason volunteered information that he had a four-ounce can of pepper spray he purchased legally inside his satchel in the cab of his truck. The spray is sold to the public, but marketed as law-enforcement strength.

The investigating officer, a young man named Officer Silas Hughes, said it was illegal to possess. That was something that even surprised his sergeant.

"Is that a prohibited weapon?" the sergeant asked Hughes according to a recording of the dash cam video.

"Yeah, you're not supposed to have it," Hughes said.

"Really?" the sergeant pressed.

"[You] can't have police-strength pepper spray," he said. "I can look it up in the penal code real quick. I can't remember exactly where it's at, but I know it's in there."

But, there is no such wording in the Texas Penal Code.

Simpkins, who the dash cam video showed was cooperative, said he couldn't believe what happened next, which was all captured on the dash cam video.

HUGHES: "You can carry stuff like Mace, things like that, like the little stuff you buy on TV, that kind of deal. This is a no-no. You can't do this."

SIMPKINS: "Really?"

HUGHES: "That being said, you want to turn around and put your hands behind your back?"

SIMPKINS: "Wait, wait."

HUGHES: "Put your hands behind your back."

SIMPKINS: "I'm under arrest for..."

HUGHES: "I've asked you twice. Number three time, turn around and put your hands behind your back."

Simpkins complied.

He was arrested and charged with a third-degree felony. Pepper spray, Wylie police alleged that night, is a prohibited weapon. A Collin County Grand Jury agreed to prosecute the case, but refused to indict.

John Duscio, Wylie's police chief, said the system worked.

"They didn't say the officer did anything wrong," Duscio said. "They just felt there wasn't enough to continue on because there is a lot of variance, a lot of gray in that law."

The chief admitted he has never heard of another case similar to it. But, he adamantly supported his officers as they considered the totality of the circumstances.

The exception in the law is vague, stating pepper spray is illegal to possess in anything "other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection."

"Is this one small?" Chief Duscio asked holding up a two ounce canister of pepper spray.

"Is this one small?" he asked holding up Simpkins' much taller four ounce black canister. "You might say it's small. I might say it's not. The law doesn't clearly state what small is or what a chemical dispensing device really is."

Wylie police tested the flaw in the law and lost. Simpkins said he is just upset it happened at his expense. He lost $6,200 in expenses related to the arrest and hiring an attorney, he said.

Since the grand jury refused to indict, essentially dropping the charge, Simpkins wants a refund and his record expunged.

Duscio said he met with Simpkins but would not divulge what was discussed or what might happen.

A call to the Wylie city manager, Mindy Manson, was not returned as of 10 p.m. Thursday.