Just Say No To Serpa?

[Beiruty]

I have a Spera and I like it. Draw is so fast, it is just second nature. Have you seen newbee draw from IWB, man that was fumbling with cover and struggling with the draw, reholstering was a bit of problem when the mouth of the holster (kydex) will collapse!

[Catfight]

I had this same exact concern with my Serpa duty holster. I see no difference in managing the retention catches vs. something like the Safariland Lvl 3. As for the negligent discharges, again, the gun isnt going to go off unless someone puts their finger on the trigger. Practically everyone in my department carries the Serpa and somehow we have managed not to shoot ourselves just yet.

[Excaliber]

In Phoenix this spring, I watched Todd Jarrett fumble the draw five times out of six due to somehow missing the lock and yanking on a pistol that wouldn't release from the holster. That's all the confirmation I need that I don't want one.

Failure to practice and achieve proficiency with one's equipment is user error, not equipment deficiency.

I saw the same phenomenon when retention holsters were first issued in my agency - officers couldn't get their guns out under stress and blamed the holsters. After appropriate training and practice, our average shooter could meet our standard of delivering 3 center chest hits at 2 yards from the holster, wearing full equipment, in under 2 seconds (verified by computer controlled turning targets). The proficient guys did considerably better.

When these draws were made on the street, the speed and smoothness of the action caused a number of bad guys to reconsider their plans and surrender without any shots fired. We liked that.

I have a couple of Serpa holsters that I consider excellent gear. Their only drawback in my book is that the release button can get jammed if dirt, sand, or other debris gets between the button and the surrounding material. This would be a consideration for police or military applications, but is not a significant issue for me for concealed carry.

[Roscoe]

I think the Serpa is an excellent holster and have many friends and co-workers who use them. I really like the Comp-tac holsters and have been using one since the fighting started in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've never had any problem with them, and I'm sure the three I have with me will last til my time here is up - next summer!!

The Serpa is like any other gear, it has to be cleaned and maintained regularly to function properly. I could see a shooter who is used to using a passive retention holster like the comp-tac, sidearmor or fobus having some problems getting used to the Serpa. Use of any new equipment requires a bit of practice. As litigation sensitive as most government agencies are, if the holster was considered in any way to be faulty; there's no way its use would be allowed over here - and it is probably the most popular holster carried in the zones.

[Excaliber]

I think the Serpa is an excellent holster and have many friends and co-workers who use them. I really like the Comp-tac holsters and have been using one since the fighting started in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've never had any problem with them, and I'm sure the three I have with me will last til my time here is up - next summer!!

The Serpa is like any other gear, it has to be cleaned and maintained regularly to function properly. I could see a shooter who is used to using a passive retention holster like the comp-tac, sidearmor or fobus having some problems getting used to the Serpa. Use of any new equipment requires a bit of practice. As litigation sensitive as most government agencies are, if the holster was considered in any way to be faulty; there's no way its use would be allowed over here - and it is probably the most popular holster carried in the zones.

Most folks require 1500 - 3000 repetitions of a new motion sequence before they become comfortable with it. Some require considerably more. If one then ends the practice and simply carries a new holster, his skill will degrade in the same way his golf game would if he only played once or twice a year.

During my police service, I observed that many officers took off their duty belts at the end of the day and hung them in their lockers with the guns still in the holsters. I made a practice of removing my pistol from the holster with the same movements I would use to draw on the street (but not at speed) and put the gun on the top shelf. (There was a concrete wall behind my locker, this movement was performed facing the locker, and the gun was placed on the shelf with the barrel pointed at the wall.) That way I was sure the holster still functioned properly, and I practiced at least one draw per day. It was a little thing that cost me nothing, but when I had to draw on the street, the gun came into my hand and lined up where it belonged without having to think about it right quick every time.

[gmckinl]

In Phoenix this spring, I watched Todd Jarrett fumble the draw five times out of six due to somehow missing the lock and yanking on a pistol that wouldn't release from the holster. That's all the confirmation I need that I don't want one.

Failure to practice and achieve proficiency with one's equipment is user error, not equipment deficiency.

Do you know who Todd Jarrett is? I think he gets plenty of practice.

BTW the drill he was fumbling on was: draw, fire, mag change reload, fire. This was to be done in under 1.5 seconds. With the fumble causing a double draw stroke, he was still running around 1.6 seconds.

If you like them, great. Glad it works.

[Excaliber]

In Phoenix this spring, I watched Todd Jarrett fumble the draw five times out of six due to somehow missing the lock and yanking on a pistol that wouldn't release from the holster. That's all the confirmation I need that I don't want one.

Failure to practice and achieve proficiency with one's equipment is user error, not equipment deficiency.

Do you know who Todd Jarrett is? I think he gets plenty of practice.

BTW the drill he was fumbling on was: draw, fire, mag change reload, fire. This was to be done in under 1.5 seconds. With the fumble causing a double draw stroke, he was still running around 1.6 seconds.

If you like them, great. Glad it works.

Yes, I know who Todd Jarrett is, I greatly respect his skills, and those are spectacular times for overcoming a draw problem and completing a very difficult drill that I admittedly couldn't perform in anywhere near that time. However, a Serpa holster in good condition functions consistently exactly as designed. My point was that if Todd or anyone else repeatedly can't get his gun out of a properly functioning Serpa holster reliably, by definition he has failed to practice to the point of full proficiency under stress with that particular piece of equipment.

A very challenging drill like the one you described can raise stress levels and cause even an expert to revert to his most deeply ingrained reflexes, although he does just fine at other times. If those reflexes correspond to a holster different than the one he's wearing, the results won't be good.

That being said, he is photographed wearing a Serpa in the link above, and champion shooters are usually very particular about testing and practicing extensively with every last detail of their gear so they don't encounter gotchas during competition, so lack of practice may well not be the cause of the fumbled draws you saw. I added the "properly functioning" caveat because it's very possible that some sand or other debris had gotten between the release button and holster body on his rig that day. This is a known issue and can cause this holster to either not release the gun at all, or to not do so consistently, even with perfect technique. Other possibilities are wear or a broken release mechanism part. Those would be something even someone of his skill level couldn't fix on the spot during active competition.

I'm sure Todd will quickly fix the performance issues you saw by either fixing / replacing that particular holster, practicing lots more with the Serpa under tight time limits, or using a different holster next time.

For the information of others considering buying a Serpa, the release mechanism is very significantly different than most other holsters, as I found out when I first tried to use it. It's not hard - very simple, actually. The issue is that it is different than any I had trained on before, and not just a little bit, but a lot. When I started using it, I could do several smooth draws in a row, and then have a failure as soon as I stopped thinking about exactly how it works. It requires use of a finger movement that is unlike any other holster I have ever used, and it took a lot of work to make my draw from it reasonably reliable. For this reason, I still won't trust it for occasional wear. Going back and forth between holsters with radically different release mechanisms is a recipe for disaster.

Because the Serpa is an OWB rig that I can't conceal during warm weather, I only wear it under a jacket or coat during the cooler months. When I plan to start using it again, I have to practice with it for a few days and then wear it consistently so my reptilian brain is capable of using it under stress. This would not be an issue for someone who started out with a Serpa. They would likely have similar difficulty adapting to something like the Safariland SSIII, which I could probably draw from in my sleep.

[Roscoe]

Sorry, the point I was trying to make is that most people would practice with a holster before carrying it for actual use. It is assumed that anyone who carrys a gun would continue to practice with it, his holster of choice and ancillary equipment.

Thankfully I'm not a security specialist out here. I do carry a gun 12-18 hours a day and have had opportunity to practice with it pretty much anytime I want. Security specialists in Afghanistan and Iraq are probably called upon to use their weapons more than most anyone I've known, certainly more than the average combat grunt in the warzones. I haven't met one yet whose abilities I've doubted. Most are former SEALS, Special Forces, Delta or Rangers. When it comes to training and using their weapons I'd put them at the top of the food chain. While I may not carry the same equipment they do, I respect their choices a great deal.

Back when I was in the military everyone was forced to carry the issued holster for their handgun. Out here, and in Afghanistan you see different rigs - usually purchased by the individual - worn by GI's and Marines (both officers and enlisted). Many of these troops opt for the Serpa; they are even for sale at the PX. I don't own a Serpa, and have no desire to. Obviously many professional gun handlers out in the war zones like them.

[rstrainii]

For a concealed carry I don't like the Sepra it is not a CC Holster, it sicks out to far and flops around way to much IMHO. I love it for the range and if I was to open carry I would use it. I have two great holsters that I love for concealed carry one is a Safari Land paddle that pulls in real close and stays put, it uses passive retintion and I can use it on multiple guns, with its tension screw adjustments. My favorite is my Galco FLETCH it rides high and pulls in real close to my side and has the thumb break and is a belt holster. The Safari Land could never be used for Open carry however the FLETCH can be carried open carry. IMHO you want a concealment holster to be easy to get to the gun out in a frighting situation but stays real close to the body and can be concealed easy, tehe Serpa does not meet any of those for me. I do know guys that carry them and love them, just not for me. I would look at what police or Federal Agents wear, Not uniform but plain clothes officers, from my research most dont allow paddle holster but there are some great OWB out there. IWB is another option, that is great for concealment.

[gwashorn]

Well, I have a couple [abbreviated profanity deleted] Blackhawk Serpas but I DO NOT use them for CC. I use them when I go hunting. They just do not conceal well as others here have noted and I agree, IMHO. However, I do like a level II retention and I tried the Bianchi Carrylok. I use one for my XD9SC. I have used it in different training classes etc and it draws very easy and only took minimal practice time to get use to it. For Level II, I find the Serpa position of the index finger maybe, just maybe a bit more natural. But with very little practice and now since I have used it with a lot of practice, my carrylok is as natural as can be. For those not familar it uses the middel finger behind the trigger guard and you move it as you grip and pull your weapon. Fast drawing from multiple types of shirts and vests has been no problem for me. Reholsters very nice, fits close since it is a pancake style etc. So for me, and that means for me, I find it fine. Others mileage may vary depending on how you draw. My two cents.

Gary

[tarkus]

I don't hear any stories of professionals having problems with the Serpa retention. Looks like practice is the key.

[C-dub]

from my research most dont allow paddle holster but there are some great OWB out there.

Are there issues with paddle holsters? I have almost exclusively used paddles and like the ability to move them forward or back on my belt when getting in and out of my car.

[koolaid]

There was a recall for a specific model Serpa that could cause ND's when reholstering Glocks/M&P's.

I really have no idea how you could accidentally pull the trigger when drawing, though. Your finger doesn't end up in the trigger guard, it ends up laying on the side of the gun, like you would have it normally when you weren't about to shoot something. The only valid complaint I see is that if something lodges in the release button you might not be able to pull your pistol out of it.

[C-dub]

I can understand a malfunctioning holster, but it sounded like there might some problems with paddle holsters in general.

[fm2]

I can understand a malfunctioning holster, but it sounded like there might some problems with paddle holsters in general.

The problem with most paddle holsters is retaining the gun to the body. The whole package can come off or be broken off of the belt under force.