Austin Gun Show Troubles?

[OldCannon]

Williamson Co has a lower tax rate too :)

[ninjamedic2293]

While I dont condone the actions of APD I find it ironic that the same gun show organizers who ban concealed carry at theirs shows all the sudden become concerned about the 2A rights when their business is affected. You either care about the RKBA or you dont pick a side and stick with it.


ETA: I have been informed that as opposed to the SAXET shows this one wasnt posted 30.06 nor was an LEO checking you. Statement retracted.

[frazzled]

OK I'm agreed the hassling is Big Brother and very California.
I too would rather see the shows "where they are wanted" ala Williamson/Round Rock (I do believe Cedar park has a new convention center hint hint)

Question-whats the issue with going through an FFL for a private exchange (other than the fee)? I'm not seeing why thats a big deal-can someone help me out here?

[C-dub]

Were the Saxet and Texas Gun shows both held and the same HEB location? If they were then Austin's analogy works. However, if not then I would amend his analogy to be a different hotel entirely where the illegal or questionable activities took place.

For my clarification, is it illegal for me, a private citizen, to sell to a felon or is is it just illegal for the felon to purchase or possess a gun? Never mind all the caveats of which state I'm in or what kind of felony it was and all that. I just mean in general. I wonder since I don't have access to or the ability to do an NICS or background check on someone or apparently the requirement. I can understand that I might be in trouble if I knowingly do this, but if I don't know the person is a felon and I'm not required to check will I still be in trouble?

[CWOOD]

OK I'm agreed the hassling is Big Brother and very California.
I too would rather see the shows "where they are wanted" ala Williamson/Round Rock (I do believe Cedar park has a new convention center hint hint)

Question-whats the issue with going through an FFL for a private exchange (other than the fee)? I'm not seeing why thats a big deal-can someone help me out here?

Good morning, frazzled

I'll take a stab at it. To me, anyway, the problem is that it is perfectly legal for a law abiding citizen to sell a legal firearm to another law abiding citizen...anywhere in Texas that they have a right to be. They are trying to prevent a lawful transaction. They are saying that because others made an illegal transaction YOU cannot make a legal one. It is the same old story which colors ALL of the gun control advocates' arguements. SOMEONE might do bad and illegal things with a firearm, so let's make the possession of firearms illegal by everyone, law abiding and not.

In this case they have no explicit legal authority to do this so they are bending a public nuisance ordinance to fit a preconceived intent.

As I wrote to APD, I don't want felons or illegal aliens to have access to firearms anymore than they do, so if they find such an occasion of illegal activity, then by all means present that case in court to get severe punishment to all criminals involved, but don't infringe on the legal activities of everyone else...including the operation of a legal private business.

They seem to have a problem with the meaning of 'infringe'.

That is my take anyway.

[frazzled]

OK I'm agreed the hassling is Big Brother and very California.
I too would rather see the shows "where they are wanted" ala Williamson/Round Rock (I do believe Cedar park has a new convention center hint hint)

Question-whats the issue with going through an FFL for a private exchange (other than the fee)? I'm not seeing why thats a big deal-can someone help me out here?

Good morning, frazzled

I'll take a stab at it. To me, anyway, the problem is that it is perfectly legal for a law abiding citizen to sell a legal firearm to another law abiding citizen...anywhere in Texas that they have a right to be. They are trying to prevent a lawful transaction. They are saying that because others made an illegal transaction YOU cannot make a legal one. It is the same old story which colors ALL of the gun control advocates' arguements. SOMEONE might do bad and illegal things with a firearm, so let's make the possession of firearms illegal by everyone, law abiding and not.

In this case they have no explicit legal authority to do this so they are bending a public nuisance ordinance to fit a preconceived intent.

As I wrote to APD, I don't want felons or illegal aliens to have access to firearms anymore than they do, so if they find such an occasion of illegal activity, then by all means present that case in court to get severe punishment to all criminals involved, but don't infringe on the legal activities of everyone else...including the operation of a legal private business.

They seem to have a problem with the meaning of 'infringe'.

That is my take anyway.

Mmm. Gotcha.
Yes the Austin Mistakesman is citing the crimes 1. like they are linked; 2. like its the same show. Sorry but thats about on par for the Mistakesman. They are pretty anti LEO, unless it conflicts with a conservative position.

[FlynJay]

Were the Saxet and Texas Gun shows both held and the same HEB location? If they were then Austin's analogy works. However, if not then I would amend his analogy to be a different hotel entirely where the illegal or questionable activities took place.

For my clarification, is it illegal for me, a private citizen, to sell to a felon or is is it just illegal for the felon to purchase or possess a gun? Never mind all the caveats of which state I'm in or what kind of felony it was and all that. I just mean in general. I wonder since I don't have access to or the ability to do an NICS or background check on someone or apparently the requirement. I can understand that I might be in trouble if I knowingly do this, but if I don't know the person is a felon and I'm not required to check will I still be in trouble?

It is illegal for you to knowingly sell to a felon. Before I sell to anyone, I ask to see a Texas driver's license, and I ask if they are legally able to purchase a firearm in Texas. If they have a problem with me taking down their name and TX DL # then no deal.

[O6nop]

Were the Saxet and Texas Gun shows both held and the same HEB location? If they were then Austin's analogy works. However, if not then I would amend his analogy to be a different hotel entirely where the illegal or questionable activities took place.

For my clarification, is it illegal for me, a private citizen, to sell to a felon or is is it just illegal for the felon to purchase or possess a gun? Never mind all the caveats of which state I'm in or what kind of felony it was and all that. I just mean in general. I wonder since I don't have access to or the ability to do an NICS or background check on someone or apparently the requirement. I can understand that I might be in trouble if I knowingly do this, but if I don't know the person is a felon and I'm not required to check will I still be in trouble?

It is illegal for you to knowingly sell to a felon. Before I sell to anyone, I ask to see a Texas driver's license, and I ask if they are legally able to purchase a firearm in Texas. If they have a problem with me taking down their name and TX DL # then no deal.

I don't want to change my whole stance on the current rights to keep, bear and sell arms, but this may be the problem and I hope someone can set me straight on the whole thing. As gun owners we should look down on anyone selling a gun to anyone not allowed to own one, be it a felon, a mental case, or a minor. If I don't ask, I don't know... so is that legal for the seller? To say, "Oh, I didn't know" would get you off scot free??
Maybe it should state a little more like "knowingly or irresponsibly" that way they take responsibility for who the gun is sold to. Even if it was done in the parking lot or in your driveway.

[03Lightningrocks]

Were the Saxet and Texas Gun shows both held and the same HEB location? If they were then Austin's analogy works. However, if not then I would amend his analogy to be a different hotel entirely where the illegal or questionable activities took place.

For my clarification, is it illegal for me, a private citizen, to sell to a felon or is is it just illegal for the felon to purchase or possess a gun? Never mind all the caveats of which state I'm in or what kind of felony it was and all that. I just mean in general. I wonder since I don't have access to or the ability to do an NICS or background check on someone or apparently the requirement. I can understand that I might be in trouble if I knowingly do this, but if I don't know the person is a felon and I'm not required to check will I still be in trouble?

It is illegal for you to knowingly sell to a felon. Before I sell to anyone, I ask to see a Texas driver's license, and I ask if they are legally able to purchase a firearm in Texas. If they have a problem with me taking down their name and TX DL # then no deal.

The law doesn't say you must write down my name and DL. Welcome to the business of infringing on our constitutional rights. The problem we have is explained in actions such as this. You have a justification for violating the RKBA just as the Austin PD.

[frazzled]

Were the Saxet and Texas Gun shows both held and the same HEB location? If they were then Austin's analogy works. However, if not then I would amend his analogy to be a different hotel entirely where the illegal or questionable activities took place.

For my clarification, is it illegal for me, a private citizen, to sell to a felon or is is it just illegal for the felon to purchase or possess a gun? Never mind all the caveats of which state I'm in or what kind of felony it was and all that. I just mean in general. I wonder since I don't have access to or the ability to do an NICS or background check on someone or apparently the requirement. I can understand that I might be in trouble if I knowingly do this, but if I don't know the person is a felon and I'm not required to check will I still be in trouble?

It is illegal for you to knowingly sell to a felon. Before I sell to anyone, I ask to see a Texas driver's license, and I ask if they are legally able to purchase a firearm in Texas. If they have a problem with me taking down their name and TX DL # then no deal.

The law doesn't say you must write down my name and DL. Welcome to the business of infringing on our constitutional rights. The problem we have is explained in actions such as this. You have a justification for violating the RKBA just as the Austin PD.

Thats not infringing. Its a private transaction. If he, as seller wants the buyer to dance the Babooshka in a pink leotard and the buyer agrees then they can contract to do so.

Myself, I wouldn't sell a firearm to someone unless I actually knew them, as I am not in the business and don't want the firearm to fall into the wrong hands.

[Keith B]

The law doesn't say you must write down my name and DL. Welcome to the business of infringing on our constitutional rights. The problem we have is explained in actions such as this. You have a justification for violating the RKBA just as the Austin PD.

No, it doesn't, but I do the same thing. It is the choice of the person selling to ensure that they are comfortable with the transaction. I have asked for CHL before. I choose who I sell to, and if they don't want to show a drivers license or CHL, then that is their choice also and they can move on to buy from someone else.

Edit to add: And it is not the same as filling out a government form that is filed away. Also, I will bet the FFL will want a transfer fee.

[A-R]

The law doesn't say you must write down my name and DL. Welcome to the business of infringing on our constitutional rights. The problem we have is explained in actions such as this. You have a justification for violating the RKBA just as the Austin PD.

No, it doesn't, but I do the same thing. It is the choice of the person selling to ensure that they are comfortable with the transaction. I have asked for CHL before. I choose who I sell to, and if they don't want to show a drivers license or CHL, then that is their choice also and they can move on to buy from someone else.

Edit to add: And it is not the same as filling out a government form that is filed away. Also, I will bet the FFL will want a transfer fee.

And CHOICE (highlighted above) is the operative word here. Freedom means CHOICE. And since liberals seem to love the word CHOICE in other aspects of American life, perhaps they will understand that we would like the CHOICE to conduct a private business transaction as we see fit, not as the gun grabbers and BATFE nannies see fit.

[A-R]

Below is the Statesman's article. I actually thought they did a decent job of telling both sides of the story. They certainly did convey that the past illegal purchases happened at Mr. Boedeker's show and did not perform their due diligence or obligation to explain that the prior supposed problems were with the Saxet show. But they did quote Mr. Boedeker more than once (more than most of the TV hacks did) and they gave a decent explanation of current law - namely that it is NOT ILLEGAL for two private individuals to buy, sell, trade firearms between each other, as long as they are not prohibited persons (felson, illegals etc). Overall the whole story seemed more tit-for-tat telling both sides than the TV stories which seemed to be "this guy is complaining, but APD has explained "the truth" about it" with no rebuttal from gun show supporters to say APD's version of "the truth" is bull.

I wish they would do a follow up story with some higher ups from APD, TSRA, NRA, BATFE, Bradies etc telling their views of the law or lack there of that is being enforced here. My guess is they won't do so unless/until this becomes lawsuit(s).

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/gun ... 86641.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By Tony Plohetski
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Published: 9:26 p.m. Tuesday, Jan. 19, 2010

An Austin police effort to curtail the illegal sales of firearms at a weekend gun show sparked an angry response from the event's organizer and raised concerns about whether the department overstepped its authority.

Several police recommendations about the operation of the show were intended to curtail crime there and should not have been viewed as requirements, authorities said Tuesday.

But the show organizer said he thought that law enforcement officials were instructing him to adopt rules that violated state and federal law, including a requirement that only licensed gun dealers be allowed to sell firearms. He said he begrudgingly enforced the recommendations.

The dispute, which began late last week, has since sparked a controversy that is playing out on Web sites and radio talk shows.

Darwin Boedeker, owner of Texas Gun Shows, said he is collecting petitions from people who support gun shows without such requirements and will present them to the Texas attorney general's office.

"All they are doing is keeping the honest man from being able to do what is afforded to him by the Constitution," Boedeker said. "We have a right to buy and sell firearms as citizens of America, as legal, law-abiding citizens. That right is being infringed on us."

According to state and federal law, the private sale of guns is not illegal unless the seller knows the buyer is prohibited from purchasing a weapon, which includes being a convicted felon or an undocumented immigrant.

Gun dealers must have a license.

Austin police said that last year, while assisting federal agents in combating the sale of guns to undocumented immigrants, they recorded a number of illegal transactions. The repeated offenses at the site — a former Sam's Club location on North Lamar Boulevard — prompted police to refer the location to the department's nuisance abatement unit, which works with owners to reduce the number of crimes on their properties.

Police officials said they met last week with representatives from H-E-B, which handles the lease of the property, and with Boedeker, during which they outlined recommendations for reducing crime at the site.

The suggestions included permitting only licensed gun dealers to sell firearms, providing private security to prevent parking lot gun sales and defining a process for people other than licensed dealers who want to sell a gun at the show.

"We merely gave suggestions to reduce the amount of criminal violations that were occurring at this property," Austin police spokesman Cpl. Scott Perry said.

Boedeker said H-E-B representatives told him to follow the recommendations during the two-day show, which featured about two dozen vendors Saturday and Sunday.

"What they did was strong-arm H-E-B into making me do what I did," he said. "The problem is that it is unconstitutional to say I can't sell my private firearm to another individual."

H-E-B spokeswoman Leslie Lockett said Tuesday that police told company officials Monday about a possible illegal gun sale during the weekend and have decided that gun shows should not be hosted at the site until the issue is resolved.

Boedeker said he will look for a new venue to host shows.

He said that in the past couple of days, he has received numerous calls from across the state and nation from people who want information about what happened.

"There are a lot of upset people who want to know the truth," he said.

tplohetski@statesman.com; 445-3605

[03Lightningrocks]

The law doesn't say you must write down my name and DL. Welcome to the business of infringing on our constitutional rights. The problem we have is explained in actions such as this. You have a justification for violating the RKBA just as the Austin PD.

No, it doesn't, but I do the same thing. It is the choice of the person selling to ensure that they are comfortable with the transaction. I have asked for CHL before. I choose who I sell to, and if they don't want to show a drivers license or CHL, then that is their choice also and they can move on to buy from someone else.

Edit to add: And it is not the same as filling out a government form that is filed away. Also, I will bet the FFL will want a transfer fee.

The key wording that I was referring to was WRITE DOWN. I typically ask to see a DL also. I do not make a written record of that information. Again...I objected to the WRITING DOWN of this information as it IS a violation of our RKBA just as the City of Austin has the right to make the RULES tougher but in doing so, they are in violation of our RKBA. Requiring a CHL is also a violation of our rights...but, what are ya gonna do?

[Keith B]

The law doesn't say you must write down my name and DL. Welcome to the business of infringing on our constitutional rights. The problem we have is explained in actions such as this. You have a justification for violating the RKBA just as the Austin PD.

No, it doesn't, but I do the same thing. It is the choice of the person selling to ensure that they are comfortable with the transaction. I have asked for CHL before. I choose who I sell to, and if they don't want to show a drivers license or CHL, then that is their choice also and they can move on to buy from someone else.

Edit to add: And it is not the same as filling out a government form that is filed away. Also, I will bet the FFL will want a transfer fee.

The key wording that I was referring to was WRITE DOWN. I typically ask to see a DL also. I do not make a written record of that information. Again...I objected to the WRITING DOWN of this information as it IS a violation of our RKBA just as the City of Austin has the right to make the RULES tougher but in doing so, they are in violation of our RKBA. Requiring a CHL is also a violation of our rights...but, what are ya gonna do?

I still disagree. Writing down the information is not the same as filling out a form for the ATF. I keep the information in case there is a question or problem later on where the gun is stolen or possibly used in a crime, I can go back and know who it was sold to. Some people actually use a bill of sale; no different.

If you choose not to write it down if selling or provide the information if buying, then that is your choice. I don't see any rights violation on a private sale.