Billie Joe Shaver NOT GUILTY in shooting outside bar

[A-R]

Just finished reading the article that SIA posted a few years ago when this first happened ... http://www.laweekly.com/2007-09-20/musi ... e-shaver/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BJS's story is somewhat different in that article than the testimony in court. First of all BJS claims he went out to his car to get his gun. Perhaps he was making up that story to try to avoid the illegal carry charge? After all, if he made it all the way out to his car to retrieve his gun, then why didn't he just leave at that point? If you go out to your car to get a gun and then go back toward the "danger", I fail to see how that is self-defense. I realize there is the Castle Law and all that, but I'm just not buying the "feared for his life" part at this point in the story. As seniorshootress says above, this was just two kids fightin' (then one goes to get a gun).

[KD5NRH]

After all, if he made it all the way out to his car to retrieve his gun, then why didn't he just leave at that point?

Maybe his wife wouldn't leave. Abandoning family is pretty "chicken," even if she wasn't being particularly helpful by staying.

IMO, the real culprit here, besides the drunk, is the bar management that didn't do anything about a drunk patron trying to pick a fight in the first place.

[casingpoint]

I bought it for practice, but suddenly I see my ten ounce Model 317 EIGHT-SHOT aluminum J frame in a new light. Ya'll keep them there 1911 and such. I got me a fireplug stopper.

Billy Joe Who

[surprise_i'm_armed]

IIRC from the original long story in the magazine,
BJS had to go outside the bar to his vehicle to retrieve
his .22. Coker came outside and BJS shot him outside.

If that was the case, it doesn't seem like he could be found
guilty of the "CHL carrying in a bar" charge.

Do I have the facts straight, or am I missing something here?

SIA

[dubya]

Perhaps BJS is not guilty because Jesus would have done the same.

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/breakingnews/Liveblog.html

From Friday's proceedings:
4:24 p.m. — Toben says a reasonable man would have left the bar, not going outside to fight. Toben says: "(Shaver) wants you to believe he was WWJD...What would Jesus do? ...When he went outside with the guy with the knife, Shaver went from "What would Jesus do to what would John Wayne do? He's not chicken _____," using words from his testimony.

Toben tells jurors not to take Shaver's background and history of violence and say, "What would Billy Joe do.' You say, 'What would a reasonable person do?' " Toben says, even if jurors use the facts that Shaver himself testified to, he still wasn't defending himself.

"Ladies and gentleman, today it's time for you to teach Billy Joe Shaver a lesson. ... He may be a honky tonk hero, and he may have written a lot of great songs. But I submit to you that on March 31, 2007 at Papa Joe's bar, he was a honky tonk bully."

===
This is definately an odd case, with a high dollar lawyer Dick DeGeurin and with Willie and Robert Duval lending moral support.




Just old men with short fuses. Mine seems to grow longer as i age.
"Coker acknowledged that he thought Shaver became “a little annoyed” with him after he took out his pocketknife and stirred his whiskey and water because the bar had no swizzle sticks. But other than that, Coker said, he has no idea why Shaver got angry enough to shoot him.
"

[shootthesheet]

These two pompous jerks are the reason I don't go to bars. I should be legally able to carry if I do because of these kinds of fear filled or anger filled people who start trouble for no other reason but because they want to show off or get revenge. Both are terrible people who should grow up and stop acting like spoiled teenagers. I could have some understanding if they were 17 and doing that kind of thing but not at 56 or 70 years old. This reminds me that it isn't only the young people dressed outside of my preference we have to be on the lookout for but also older guys who would be better off at home than drinking at a bar.

Willie Nelson supporting him should be reason enough to find the guy guilty of something!

[camjr]

If I recall correctly, when the story of the shooting first broke, the guy that was shot said that BJS pulled the little .22 and asked him "Where do you want it?" I didn't see this ending well for Shaver when I read that. He must have embellished a little back then, because the story didn't mention that little gem.

[texas1234]

That is such a crazy life. You have individuals that live a clean life and die at 40. Then you have guys like this that basically as an analogy wake up everyday and run as fast as they can head first into a brick wall that live to be 70 or more.

[Keith B]

That is such a crazy life. You have individuals that live a clean life and die at 40. Then you have guys like this that basically as an analogy wake up everyday and run as fast as they can head first into a brick wall that live to be 70 or more.

These are the kind of individuals that Heaven doesn't want, and the devil is afraid they will take over his place, so they have nowhere to go and they just keep on living.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Speaking of people who live hard lives, but keep going,
how about Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones?

He's taken every substance known to man, in quantity,
and although he looks like death warmed over, he's
still able to fog a mirror.

Contrast that with Jim Fixx, the runner, who dropped
dead at something like 42. Sheesh.

SIA

[A-R]

Old joke: After nuclear war, what will be the only two living things left on Earth?

Cockroaches and Keith Richards .... and the cockroaches will be so disgusted by the sight of Keith Richards that they'll just commit mass suicide

[jack010203]

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

I hadn't even thought of that angle. Maybe this whole scenario just proves the insanity of the 51% law. The knife guy probably thought he could harass BJS in the bar because "guns are illegal in bars" so I'll just use my knife to intimidate him, what's he gonna do? Not like he can pull out a gun and shoot me - guns are illegal in bars.

Of course, I'd be willing to use BJS as a poster child for the cause if he hadn't also been drinking and if he didn't like to shoot off his mouth at trial - the chicken (poop) comment at trial was just stupid - more fodder for the antis who will chalk this up as an old man with booze bravery getting into a fight with another old man suffering from whiskey bravado.

This is exactly why I do NOT endorse an outright revocation of the 51% law. I think you should be able to carry in a bar IF you're not drinking. But if you're going to drink, leave the gun at home or in the car.

*emphasis added

Odd I thought we would all just be responsible for our actions, even when voluntary intoxicated.
But I guess the 51% law has kept people from getting victimized in bars so we should keep it

[texas1234]

Keith B that is interesting you say that. It made me remember that my granfather used to say that same quote about himself, and now that i think about it he lived doggone pretty close to a Shaver lifestyle, I think my grandfather passed away at the age of 79. His old Mexican national wife (his 5th wife) used to say, "NO NO he jus drink beer now, he to mean drinkin dat whisky"

[A-R]

This is exactly why I do NOT endorse an outright revocation of the 51% law. I think you should be able to carry in a bar IF you're not drinking. But if you're going to drink, leave the gun at home or in the car.

*emphasis added

Odd I thought we would all just be responsible for our actions, even when voluntary intoxicated.
But I guess the 51% law has kept people from getting victimized in bars so we should keep it

Sorry, but I don't trust, you, me, my best friend or anyone else to be "responsible" while drinking alcohol. Certainly someone could just have "one or two" and be perfectly coherent and sober. But it's just a slippery slope I'd rather not travel. Same reason why we have drunken driving laws. Now I can debate where we draw "the line" between sober and drunk all day long. Is 0.08% BAL still sober for some? Sure. But I want a line drawn somewhere, because again I DO NOT trust you, me or anyone else to know when they've crossed that line. Part of being drunk is losing cognitive reasoning. So how can someone be expected to know if they're drunk when - by being drunk they lose the self awareness to make such a decision?

Personally, for me, a drink or two over dinner is fine while carrying or driving. But I (and my better half) know to stop me there. This is why I like our restaurant carry laws just fine. A drink or two while ingesting a meal is different than "a few drinks" at a bar with no meal in your belly. In a bar that is 51%, if we can convince the Legislature to allow carry in such places, I think it is prudent both politically and for safety reasons, to limit carry to those who are not going to drink. Sort of like a Designated Driver - have a Designated Carrier. Serve them free soda or coffee or whatever.

I'm sure to some I sound like a borderline socialist or Nazi or something for daring to advocate regulatation of someone else's behavior. So be it. I've seen too much beer bravado in my time, which is one of the reason's I'd like to be able to carry if I get dragged into a bar by friends but abstain from drinking.

And yes, I believe the current 51% law has kept people safer from macho drunk morons with guns. I'd just like it tweaked a bit to allow us the right to defend ourselves from such drunk morons. If you want to carry in a bar, don't drink while in the bar - doesn't seem like too much to ask to gain the ability to carry where carrying is currently illegal altogether.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.

I feel sorry for people who don't drink.
They wake up in the morning and that's the best they're going to feel all day.

Both, Dean Martin, 1917-1995.