Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

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fickman
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#16

Post by fickman »

I'm a philosophical person, so this is pretty easy for me. I honestly feel that the burden of proof for this debate rests with the anti-Open Carry camp.

Here are some common anti-Open Carry statements:
Even if there was open carry, I'd still carry concealed.
Don't antis say this about firearms in general? Don't many gun owners and antis say this about concealed carry? "Even though it is legal to own/carry a firearm, I still don't see the need. I never would."

This is not a substantive argument.

The law would provide you the freedom to choose, not compel you to act against your will. If you hate open carry, then an open carry law would leave you free to choose NOT to exercise that freedom. Concealed carry laws allow us to choose whether or not to carry a firearm concealed. If you don't want to, then don't. You're free not to. I often choose not to exercise all of my rights at every given moment.

There is a tactical disadvantage.
This is pragmatism, not philosophical. It might be an argument for why one should choose not to open carry, but it is not a positive argument for open carry laws. Especially considering that there are tactical disadvantages for every situation: concealed carry takes longer to draw, can get snagged in apparel, can compromise the size, accuracy, and capacity of the firearm you choose, etc. These are valid points for firearm owners to consider when choosing how best to protect themselves. They hold no merit when discussing the validity or necessity of laws.

When would you even use open carry when you can conceal it?
Again, this sounds like the antis arguments against concealed carry. It also sounds like the environmentalists who presume I need to justify the utilization of a vehicle with poor fuel economy before purchase.

All that anybody needs to know is that somebody else might have reasons to open carry. You may have none, but somebody may have one. The reasons are plentiful and have been listed numerous times. Regardless, you can't stand in judgment of somebody else's priorities. If it's important to them, then let them be. Let's DEFAULT to freedom. Let's DEFAULT to fewer governmental restrictions on our daily lives.
- Getting in and out of cars
- Being on private property in public view
- Being on private property in private view
- Sitting in a restaurant at a table and removing your cover garment
- Because I want to and feel that I should have the freedom to
- Hot summer days
- Because I feel safer with pairs of Desert Eagles or Smith and Wesson .500 Magnums on each hip, and they're a bear to conceal
- Because I think the Constitution grants me the right to

This will cause more businesses to ban all firearms.
Again, pragmatism. How many of you would be for a law that bans everything larger than a .32 but allows you to carry anywhere in the country (even courthouses, private businesses, etc.), as long as you turn in your other guns? (This is a reductio ad absurdum.) Essentially: are you willing to give up more of your rights and freedoms to win a pragmatic battle?

There are many ways to answer this pragmatically:
- Make them post two different signs, one that addresses open carry and one that addresses concealed carry
- Make them give verbal notice to open carry
- Remove the ability to post signs
- Boycott the places that do this and let the free market decide

Regardless, we need to stop letting pragmatism compromise our fundamental ideology. If we do, we could easily start down the slippery slope of allowing our rights to be eroded completely. What's wrong with ammo stamping? Ammo registration? Gun registration? Capacity limits? Caliber limits? Gun quotas? etc., etc., etc.? What if they give us a token freedom for each real freedom they remove? Would it pacify us?

I understand that not everybody feels compelled to jump in the fight and crusade for open carry rights, but my goodness, nobody on this forum should be campaigning AGAINST them!!! (Or making the open carry people JUSTIFY their positions!!!)

Again, I think we should default to freedom and put the burden of proof in the debate on the people who want to restrict those freedoms.

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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#17

Post by TxKimberMan »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
TxKimberMan wrote:
My intent is not to hijack this thread...

You can't hijack your own thread!
I've tried and failed miserably...
It appears I have succeeded where others have failed :biggrinjester: My original post was in another thread, and it was moved here under a new title.
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#18

Post by TxKimberMan »

fickman wrote:
I understand that not everybody feels compelled to jump in the fight and crusade for open carry rights, but my goodness, nobody on this forum should be campaigning AGAINST them!!! (Or making the open carry people JUSTIFY their positions!!!)

Again, I think we should default to freedom and put the burden of proof in the debate on the people who want to restrict those freedoms.
TxKimberMan wrote:
I really DO NOT OPPOSE open carry, I hope it becomes a legal option for all those who wish to carry that way. I just wanted to know what reasons this is so desired by some, and have not read anything yet to change my personal view.
Who is "campaigning against" or wanting to "restrict those freedoms"? This was an honest request for insight because I don't understand the appeal. If you want to open carry, I wish you the best of luck in attaining your goal. It's just not my cup of tea.
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#19

Post by Dragonfighter »

fickman wrote:I'm a philosophical person, so this is pretty easy for me. I honestly feel that the burden of proof for this debate rests with the anti-Open Carry camp.

Here are some common anti-Open Carry statements:
Even if there was open carry, I'd still carry concealed.
Don't antis say this about firearms in general? Don't many gun owners and antis say this about concealed carry? "Even though it is legal to own/carry a firearm, I still don't see the need. I never would."

This is not a substantive argument.

<SNIP>
Now if you'd written the "I'll Join the NRA when..." letter... :biggrinjester:
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#20

Post by Mike1951 »

I wish there was a rule that before anyone could post anything about OC, that they had to read every existing post on the subject!
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#21

Post by Purplehood »

The primary reason that I would not oppose OC is that I consider it a basic right that is currently being infringed on by government, and should not be.
If my rights were unimpeded, I probably would continue to carry concealed as I do endorse the idea that it gives me the element of surprise and it does not make people aware that I am carrying. They really don't need to be unless they somehow prompt me to reveal it through the threat of deadly force.
The implementation of OC would also make "printing" or inadvertant flashing of a gun moot points.
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#22

Post by Dragonfighter »

Mike1951 wrote:I wish there was a rule that before anyone could post anything about OC, that they had to read every existing post on the subject!
Sometimes, in the interest of expediency, it is better to start off clean from a different line...even if you do end up in the same place. :mrgreen:
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#23

Post by PArrow »

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed


I'm not looking for a new law, I'm demanding that they stop enforcing an illegal one.
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#24

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Mike1951 wrote:I wish there was a rule that before anyone could post anything about OC, that they had to read every existing post on the subject!
Now that's an idea!

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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#25

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

fickman wrote:This will cause more businesses to ban all firearms.
Again, pragmatism. How many of you would be for a law that bans everything larger than a .32 but allows you to carry anywhere in the country (even courthouses, private businesses, etc.), as long as you turn in your other guns? (This is a reductio ad absurdum.) Essentially: are you willing to give up more of your rights and freedoms to win a pragmatic battle?

There are many ways to answer this pragmatically:
- Make them post two different signs, one that addresses open carry and one that addresses concealed carry
- Make them give verbal notice to open carry
- Remove the ability to post signs
- Boycott the places that do this and let the free market decide
This portion of your post reveals a level of political naivety. The first three items on your list are politically impossible to pass. The strongest pro-gun people will not vote to 1) require more than one sign to bar entrance; 2) require verbal notice to people carrying openly; or 3) remove the legal right to bar entrance by armed persons. To even suggest this shows that you do not understand the dynamics of politics.

Your forth item, boycott, would also be futile. Somewhere around 3% of the Texas population has a CHL. This small segment cannot mount an effective boycott. Plus, I'm not at all interested in having to drive past 2 or 3 picketers protesting against a store that used to let me enter with my concealed handgun, in an attempt to find a store I can enter.

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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#26

Post by fickman »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
fickman wrote:This will cause more businesses to ban all firearms.
Again, pragmatism. How many of you would be for a law that bans everything larger than a .32 but allows you to carry anywhere in the country (even courthouses, private businesses, etc.), as long as you turn in your other guns? (This is a reductio ad absurdum.) Essentially: are you willing to give up more of your rights and freedoms to win a pragmatic battle?

There are many ways to answer this pragmatically:
- Make them post two different signs, one that addresses open carry and one that addresses concealed carry
- Make them give verbal notice to open carry
- Remove the ability to post signs
- Boycott the places that do this and let the free market decide
This portion of your post reveals a level of political naivety. The first three items on your list are politically impossible to pass. The strongest pro-gun people will not vote to 1) require more than one sign to bar entrance; 2) require verbal notice to people carrying openly; or 3) remove the legal right to bar entrance by armed persons. To even suggest this shows that you do not understand the dynamics of politics.

Your forth item, boycott, would also be futile. Somewhere around 3% of the Texas population has a CHL. This small segment cannot mount an effective boycott. Plus, I'm not at all interested in having to drive past 2 or 3 picketers protesting against a store that used to let me enter with my concealed handgun, in an attempt to find a store I can enter.

Chas.
With respect, I think you missed my point. I debated whether or not to include those statements at all for fear that they would be unclear. My point was that this is an ideological / philosophical question that people are fighting with pragmatic arguments.

If something is right, it is right regardless of the consequences.

I'm not an open carry crusader. I've never posted on the topic. I've thoroughly read the opinions of both sides. I sort of kitchen-sinked on this reply because it was the summary of my thoughts for a couple of years that I've sat on. I hate the idea of pro-open-carry people having to justify themselves to the rest of the RKBA crowd. I'm sick at the idea that two sides to this conversation exist within the gun rights community.

When establishing our position, we should start with fundamentals and principles. When developing a strategic and tactical plan for achieving that end state, then we can then begin to compromise some of our ideals for measured gains toward our ultimate goal. I agree that OC is not the next step in Texas gun owner rights, but it doesn't mean it's not a worthy end state - even if it's a 10 or 20 year goal instead of an agenda item for this year.

Too many people do the mental compromise before choosing their position on this topic. I've read some frustratingly ignorant arguments against OC from the ranks of the RKBA supporters. . . and many contradict the logical arguments used to defend firearm rights in general.

I still think this example - while extreme - illustrates the point:
fickman wrote:How many of you would be for a law that bans everything larger than a .32 but allows you to carry anywhere in the country (even courthouses, private businesses, etc.), as long as you turn in your other guns? (This is a reductio ad absurdum.) Essentially: are you willing to give up more of your rights and freedoms to win a pragmatic battle?
I fear that some in here would accept this compromise. A pragmatist would. They might say, "Well, at least I still get to carry something, and I actually get to carry it in more places, so it's not that bad."

I don't feel that this is just a matter of degree. They represent fundamental differences in the approach to the gun rights question.
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#27

Post by fickman »

TxKimberMan wrote:fickman wrote:
I understand that not everybody feels compelled to jump in the fight and crusade for open carry rights, but my goodness, nobody on this forum should be campaigning AGAINST them!!! (Or making the open carry people JUSTIFY their positions!!!)

Again, I think we should default to freedom and put the burden of proof in the debate on the people who want to restrict those freedoms.
TxKimberMan wrote:
I really DO NOT OPPOSE open carry, I hope it becomes a legal option for all those who wish to carry that way. I just wanted to know what reasons this is so desired by some, and have not read anything yet to change my personal view.
Who is "campaigning against" or wanting to "restrict those freedoms"? This was an honest request for insight because I don't understand the appeal. If you want to open carry, I wish you the best of luck in attaining your goal. It's just not my cup of tea.
I apologize if I implied that you were campaigning against OC rights. FWIW, I actually don't campaign for them, even though I do agree with OC freedoms and would support moving in that direction.

This sort of turned into an open letter to the anti-OC RKBA group. I went beyond the questions of the OP.

I understand wanting to know WHY people prefer to OC, but I regret that so many feel compelled to counter those reasons when stated. Thread after thread in this forum has gone that way. This is one of those where everybody should be free to choose whichever makes them happy. We shouldn't have OC advocates hurting the non-OC people, and vice versa. Some of the anti-OC crowd wants CC to be the exclusive means for self protection with a firearm in Texas.

If we had full gun rights: legal Open Carry, Concealed Carry, unlicensed carry, licensed carry (for the sake of reciprocity). . . there would be no need for backbiting or infighting. Each individual could choose the methods preferred by them - which could change daily based on circumstances. We're all coming from different perspective - those in Austin have a much different view than those in Lamesa. Heck, I live in Fort Worth and can barely find common ground with somebody from the other side of the airport! :cheers2:

To sum it up, we can seek to understand the other perspectives, but too many are seeking to impose our resolution on the other side - as if we are weighing the validity of their reasons - instead of focusing on freedoms that would benefit everybody.

OC and CC aren't mutually exclusive. Several other states are demonstrating this fact as we speak.

I'd like to see a unified gun rights campaign where hunters support IDPA, shotgunners support riflemen, .380 Kel-Tec owners support .44 magnum owners, and concealed carry advocates include open carry in the convoy towards freedom.
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#28

Post by fickman »

I'm not trying to sound preachy on this. . . just trying to approach the conversation from a different perspective.

I want to see if we can agree on the fundamental principles. There will always be disagreement on the priorities and steps to attain that goal - that's where the debate can and should be.
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#29

Post by seniorshooteress »

Purplehood wrote:The primary reason that I would not oppose OC is that I consider it a basic right that is currently being infringed on by government, and should not be.
If my rights were unimpeded, I probably would continue to carry concealed as I do endorse the idea that it gives me the element of surprise and it does not make people aware that I am carrying. They really don't need to be unless they somehow prompt me to reveal it through the threat of deadly force.
The implementation of OC would also make "printing" or inadvertant flashing of a gun moot points.
:iagree: My reasoning as well.
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Re: Yet another pro v. con thread on open carry

#30

Post by gigag04 »

Can I not oppose it, but not pursue it actively because I think that's where I'm at.

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