CHL and RVs

[chasfm11]

Hi. This is my first post to this forum. I've been lurking here for some time, reading as much as I can while trying to learn and understand.

My primary interest in getting a CHL is our use of a motor home. We've carried a 12gauge for years but some recent events with other RVers convinced me that was no longer enough. We often camp in areas with limited or no cell phone service so help would be a long ways away.

I have a series of RV related questions but want to post them one at a time. The responses that I get to this one may influence how I present some of the others.

Before I get started, please allow me to put things in perspective. RVers are a very small percentage of the population and as such are many times not considered in laws and regulations. Even when they are, some of the conditions are rarely enforced. Let's look at a couple examples.
- did you know that there are multiple classes of non-CDL driver's licenses in Texas, depending on the weight of the vehicle or the weight of what it is towing? About 80% of the DPS workers don't and are very confused about what do to with requests from RVers about the correct driver's license for their vehicle. It is estimated at 50% of the the RVers in Texas who should have something besides a Class C drivers license don't have them.
- Texas has an open container law for alcohol in a vehicle but there is a specific exemption for the "house" portion of a motor home. It is unclear how many LEOs remember this exemption.

Many RV related matters probably fall into the category that I call HBL (hit by lightning). This means that I have a better chance of walking out into my backyard and being struck by a bolt of lightning that I do of having to deal with the matter in daily life. Many things would have to go wrong, for example, for an LEO to have reason to stop my motor home, have reason to check my cupboard, find an open Jack Daniels bottle, not remember the exemption and give me a citation for an open container.

I hope that you understand the context because several of my questions are probably in the HBL category.

Let's try the first one:

I'm traveling across country and decide to stop in the Lake Hartwell SC Corp of Engineer's campground. COE property is under Federal control. I'm assuming that I cannot rely on on following the Federal firearms transport rules (weapon and ammo locked in separate containers and away from the driver) to get me out of having a firearm on Federally controlled property. If my assumption is correct, I'm banned from COE campgrounds unless I leave my firearm at home. Because this is a publically assessable forum, I'll leave you to guess whether or not I've had my long gun with me when I did or did not visit a COE campground in the past. Having the CHL changes the potential risks to me, I believe.

I'd appreciate thoughts and guidance. Please be gentle with me. Remember: this is my first post.

Chas.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

chasfm11:

On behalf of all my forum peers, let me extend
a warm welcome to you for joining our forum.

Please expand on the problems that your fellow RV'ers
have experienced that has heightened your awareness
of self defense. This could be educational for many of us.

Having an RV, and mentioning South Carolina, it appears
that you do quite a bit of interstate travel. If you go to
the Board Index here on the forum, you will find links to
CHL reciprocity with other states.

Other members here are more familiar with reciprocity
issues, and I will defer to them for more information. But
reciprocity with other states seems somewhat open to
interpretation. Throw in the Federal government aspect,
and it gets even more depressing to exercise responsible
2A issues.

By the way, what handguns do you own, or are you going
to own when you get your CHL? Is your wife a shooter, and
will she get her own CHL? During 2009, over 22% of all new
Texas CHL's issued went to women.

If you go to the UCP (User Control Panel) of the forum, you
may wish to fill in the "Location" field so that when you post,
other forum members will know what town you hail from in TX,
at least when the RV's wheels are in the Lone Star.

SIA

[pbwalker]

Please expand on the problems that your fellow RV'ers
have experienced that has heightened your awareness
of self defense. This could be educational for many of us.

And welcome!

[seamusTX]

Welcome to the forum

What's your question?

I'm assuming that I cannot rely on on following the Federal firearms transport rules (weapon and ammo locked in separate containers and away from the driver) to get me out of having a firearm on Federally controlled property.

This is incorrect. FOPA86 is federal law always and everywhere in the United States except for secure areas like military reservations. (Some lucky winner is going to get to make case law in the District of Columbia some day.)

36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a) prohibits loaded firearms on USACE lands and waters. (It also prohibits bows and arrows by definition, which seems unfair.)

- Jim

[ELB]

Welcome!

I like the term "HBL category." Now that I have heard it, I am amazed that in my 23 years in the military, nobody I know ever came up with that one. I could see that taking off like wildfire in daily military speak. I can think of a number of times when that would have been useful in a discussion.

I too am interested in the RV questions. I rememeber that an RV or camper is effectively considered your home/house under certain laws, but would have to go look it up. This should be an interesting series of discussions.

[chasfm11]

Wow, so many responses and so quick. Thanks. Let me try to answer point in reverse order.

First thanks to Jim (Seamustx) for correcting my assumption. I'm breathing a sigh of relief. I'm aware of some effort to permit guns in the National parks but the COE campgrounds are not necessarily covered by the same rulings. We love some of the COE parks and would hate to abandon them.

Second, I have a Sig 250 9mm. Method of carry for it is still up in the air. I also have a Hi Standard Trophy.22 that I used to shoot in competition but it hadn't been fired in over 30 years until recently. It is not a carry option.

Third. Regarding the stories on RVs, there are forums similar to this one for RVs. RV.NET (it also has portals on Trailer Life and Woodalls that get you to the same forum) and IRV2.COM The problem is that the gun related threads there often draw a lot of attention, especially from the Canadians. The threads get wild and are often deleted. Nevertheless, it is well known in RVing circles that drug gangs are frequenting some of the National parks and have recently been in some of the State parks. It is also understood that RVs are being used to transport drugs. Given all of that, the possibility that a mistake is made by drug gang members in getting into the wrong RV is increased. As the economy has deteriorated, there have been lots of breakins of stored RVs to get electronics and even food. You can search the two forums that I pointed out and find those reports. More recently, there was a breakin of an older couple while they were sleeping in that RV in a CG. In the past, such a thing would have never happened. Most of the places that we go are way off the regular roads, in the woods and behind locked gates at night. A person without the proper codes to open the gates after 10pm at Cedar Hill SP has to find some other way to get to the camping areas, many of which are almost 1 mile away from that gate.

Let me take a moment on this last one. We've been going to State Parks for more than 5 years. They are great places. They have rules like no more than two vehicles or 8 people per site, no alcoholic beverages, etc. etc. In the last year, we've seen many of these flagrantly ignored. In the past, no TPW ranger was going to bother you for sitting around your campfire and drinking a beer. The last time we camped, there were 5 vehicles parked on the site across from us and probably 30-35 people having a grand old time with lots of beer very visible. Being a natural born condition yellow kind of a guy, what that tells me is that there are a lot of people not paying attention to what is going on. Don't get me wrong, I have a live and let live philosophy. Folks can do pretty much what they want as long as they don't bother me and my family. There is just no way for things to get as out of control as we observed and not have something bad happen eventually. We are older (I qualified for the senior citizen CHL fee) and there is no way I can hold my own again someone 1/3 my age who is way over the limit on drugs or booze. We lock ourselves into the motor home at night and I'm assuming that someone attempting to come inside it isn't there to say "howdy." The confines of the interior of a MH are no place to try out a 12gal so I felt the need to so something different. I have some more questions in that area but we'll save those for another post.

Thanks again. Keep the information flowing.

Chas

[chasfm11]

Sorry, left out my comments about reciprocity. I'm very pleased to see the information on here and on the NRA website about how to plan trips. We are fortunate in that our next trip to PA will not take is to WVA, NJ or NY. I have my work cut out for me as I study the requirements for the States that we'll travel through. My plan is to know exactly by State what I need to do. One of the worst situations that we personally have come across was a campground outside of Nashville TN. I definitely want to understand concealed requirements and use of force language in the TN law.

I'll update my profile. We live in the northern DFW area. I'd prefer to keep it at that.

Chas

[TxRVer]

I don't own an RV any more, but can tell you that RVs are pretty much invisible to law enforcement. have you ever seen one pulled over? I pulled a large 5th wheel and then had a large motorhome and never had more than a class C license. I never had problems with law enforcement in any state.

A motorhome or trailer is considered your home in Texas. I don't know how other states see it. I don't think a CHL will give you any more protection than that, until you step out of the RV.

I too would like to know what problems your fellow RVers have had. I always thought RVing was safe except for some non-campground overnight stays and some truck stop parking lots.

[chasfm11]

I don't own an RV any more, but can tell you that RVs are pretty much invisible to law enforcement. have you ever seen one pulled over?

Yes, I was pulled over in The Woodlands by an unmarked and out of uniform LEO. After a 5 minute tongue lashing, he told me to get out of his county and didn't issue me a citation. RVs do get pulled over for the usual - speeding, red lights, etc. but because of their size, most LEOs leave them alone, as you point out. It is hard enough to find room on today's roads to safely get a passenger vehicle pulled of, let alone something that is 100" wide.

RVs, however, are not as invisible as you might think. Try crossing the Hoover Dam and they'll go through it pretty thoroughly. Like the truckers, RVs can be examined for red dye diesel at checkpoints. We've traveled from Dallas to Harligen and have gotten some extra attention at the King Ranch checkpoint coming back. Grandma and Grandpa have gotten caught running drugs in an RV so now, in certain areas of the country, you may get stopped and watched carefully to see how nervous you are. To put it into perspective, the chances are greater today than they were 5 years ago that you will meet up with an LEO in your RV.

[TxRVer]

I guess it's been about 4 years since we went through that checkpoint on 77. We were just asked if we were citizens and then sent on our way. I'm sure things have changed since then.

[chasfm11]

SIA I wanted to pick up something you said:

Other members here are more familiar with reciprocity
issues, and I will defer to them for more information. But
reciprocity with other states seems somewhat open to
interpretation. Throw in the Federal government aspect,
and it gets even more depressing to exercise responsible
2A issues.

The laws which cover RVs are just about as complex. For example, there are length restrictions - Texas is 65'. Several States are less - 55'. Unlike your driver's license, which is good in any State, the vehicle must be legal in the States in which you drive it. I now tow a Vue but with my old Saturn SL-1, I was 54' 10". I'd bet that I'm overlength in some areas but it almost impossible to figure that out. There are those who believe that a towed car is, in fact, a trailer and subject to trailer restrictions, which all States have. One of those restrictions can be that the trailer be capable of separate braking if it weights more than 1,500lbs. Wanna guess how easy it is to put more brakes on something that already has 'em? Then, some States have requirements for special license endorsements for vehicles like mine with air brakes. All States have some sort of weight or length restriction for a different class of driver's license. Then there is the question of speed limits. I don't drive a truck. Only Illinois seems to tell you in signs that truck speed limits apply to RVs. Other places you have to guess and CA CHPs will write you up for driving an RV over 55mph. Federal highway laws and restrictions are behind some of it but not all States have adopted them the same. Guess what you are if you have a sign on the outside of your RV? Commercial! Which means that you can be cited for not having a driver's log book and not stopping at weigh stations. Except that most State weigh station operators would go ballistic if you pulled an RV onto the scales.

If I were cynical, I'd believe that the complexity for guns and RVs is done on purpose - to discourage use . There are those in the Green Movement who hate RVs as much or more than they hate the 2nd amendment.

[C-dub]

Hello and welcome to the forum Chas.

Can I assume that it is just you and the Mrs. in the RV? If so, may I say that with all due respect, I do not understand the fear of using a 12ga versus a handgun. A bullet will travel much further than a bunch of pellets if you don't hit your target. Maybe you're thinking it's too unwieldy in the confines of the RV? I guess I could see that, but fire from the hip if need be.

I can definitely see where RV's would get more attention now than 5-10+ years ago.

I checked out the link Jim gave us and while it does say "loaded", it also says "ammunition." So, unless I'm mistaken, it seems we can have a firearm on COE land, but we cannot have any ammunition to fire from it.

[chasfm11]

I checked out the link Jim gave us and while it does say "loaded", it also says "ammunition." So, unless I'm mistaken, it seems we can have a firearm on COE land, but we cannot have any ammunition to fire from it.

That could be a problem. There is no place else for me to put ammo except someplace in the RV when we are traveling. As I said, a problem with COE campgrounds would have to be the result of a lot of things going wrong. I suspect, however, that they might have more tolerance for just a shotgun with #6 than a Sig with +P JHPs if I ever was searched.

Yes, it is just me and, as the RV forums call her "DW" (Darling Wife).

And, Yes, it is the confines of the floorplan that bother me about the shotgun. It is full barrel Remington. The bedroom exits to part of the bathroom and around the shower so there are two twists that I would have to get the barrel around and lined up before I could use it. By that time, if there was someone in the living room area, he'd be in a position to lunge and grab it. For the occasion when I figured out that something bad was happening in advance, the shotgun is a perfect choice. It was the middle of the night breakins where I was looking for a different solution.

[seamusTX]

I am not a lawyer, but I see that regulation as being in conflict with FOPA86. No U.S. attorney is going to try to prosecute it against an interstate traveler who is not poaching or shooting up the landscape (both of which would be state crimes).

If a federal LEO searches your RV, either you are way down the creek without a paddle, or they do not have good probable cause for the search. Sober white people who speak English just don't get searched like that.

- Jim

[chasfm11]

If a federal LEO searches your RV, either you are way down the creek without a paddle, or they do not have good probable cause for the search. Sober white people who speak English just don't get searched like that.

We're in total agreement. If you go back to how I first posed the question, I told you that it was probably a HBL situation. Without going to much into a political bent, it sure seems to me that a lot of actions are occurring at the Federal level with little or no basis in the law for them. I was simply trying to understand my exposure if it occurred.