CHL holder killed by police in Las Vegas at a Costco

[seniorshooteress]

The media is so quick to pick up on a story involving guns but yet this story hasn't gone nation wide. So many people I have talked to haven't even heard about it.

It could be a coincidence, but Las Vegas' main source of revenue is from tourism. Remember what happened in Aruba in 2005 when Natalee Holloway went missing? After that case was widely reported in the media, many people cancelled their plans to take vacation there.

So because of a news worthy event taking place in a town that is a tourist attraction it should be ignored? So what, if people decided they didn't want to take a chance on being gunned down by the local PD and cancelled their vaction plans in favor of a place they would feel saver? I see nothing wrong with that. Do you think, just maybe, after all the lost tourism trade, Aruba changed their investigative system on missing persons cases somewhat? Or offered a bit more security for tourists? Maybe Las Vegas needs a wake up call. Best way to do that is hit em where it hurts. The pocketbook.

[WildBill]

The media is so quick to pick up on a story involving guns but yet this story hasn't gone nation wide. So many people I have talked to haven't even heard about it.

It could be a coincidence, but Las Vegas' main source of revenue is from tourism. Remember what happened in Aruba in 2005 when Natalee Holloway went missing? After that case was widely reported in the media, many people cancelled their plans to take vacation there.

So because of a news worthy event taking place in a town that is a tourist attraction it should be ignored? So what, if people decided they didn't want to take a chance on being gunned down by the local PD and cancelled their vaction plans in favor of a place they would feel saver? I see nothing wrong with that. Do you think, just maybe, after all the lost tourism trade, Aruba changed their investigative system on missing persons cases somewhat? Or offered a bit more security for tourists? Maybe Las Vegas needs a wake up call. Best way to do that is hit em where it hurts. The pocketbook.

I am offering a possible explanation, not an endorsement. This is the power of the internet. Without it most of us would be in dark about this incident. I wish I had the power, but I don't control what goes out on the AP or UPI wires.

[baldeagle]

I too am consumed with this story. I can't get it out of my mind. It has dramatically altered my thoughts about carrying, especially what circumstances it would take for me to draw my weapon. I feel terrible about Erik losing his life in a tragic cascade of circumstances. I feel terrible for the two rookie cops, whose lives will be changed forever. I hope Las Vegas will not let this incident follow the same path as previous incidents, where every incident has exonerated the police, except for one. They need to get to the bottom of this, and I think changes in training are the minimum requirement going forward. There were many things wrong with the way the police handled this, not even including the actual shooting.

This has many in the CHL community thinking hard about appropriate protocols for interaction with the police, I think.

[Beiruty]

Sheriff is making a statement:
http://www.lvrj.com/multimedia/Sheriff- ... 42294.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[philip964]

I am consumed by this event.

This could have been me.

I have a Costco card, I usedto go there. Not anymore.

I have my plastic, I have the .380 pocket gun. I can shoot it really well now. But I still have not carried yet. I am nervous that I am not
mentally prepared to react correctly in every possible situation I might find myself.

Then this happens.

The girlfriends statements seem believable, they match the history and resume of the man that was killed.

The police statements match a different man either a criminal or a man determined to have police assisted suicide.

Clearly he wasn't either of those.

This is a former tank commander with his girlfriend at his side, he is going to draw on three policemen who already have their guns out and
pointed at him. For what purpose, he's going to magically shoot them all before they kill him, all because he opened some water bottle packages inside a Costco.

This makes no sense.

Until I see the tapes, I'm siding with the victim.

Then the police rather than saying " we have had a preliminary look at the video tapes provided by Costco and they clearly show the former West Point Graduate drawing his weapon and pointing it at the police officers backing up their reports. We will release the tapes to the public at the inquest" The police say instead "there is some problem and we are sending them for analysis" and then rather than releasing the 911 tapes which almost everyone on earth does after a incident "they are being held until the inquest", which isn't next week, but is in September, when we will have forgotten about all of this. After all even The High Road has already closed this thread.

To me Costco is in serious trouble. One of their customers has died on their property and to me they had a big hand in it happening. This wasn't a robber, a thief or someone coming trying to kill someone in one of their stores. He was only a peaceful law abiding customer, exercising his constitutional rights.

It should make us all mad. And yes no one outside of Las Vegas has reported the story, not even any of the conservative talk shows or stations.

It just another nut with a gun.

[Pinkycatcher]

I never did understand why police departments are always so reluctant to release video or audio evidence. Is there a legal reason? Excalibur? Chas? I guess if it does show you are wrong then you can't find a truly unbiased jury, but then again, if it shows you are wrong, well you're wrong. But if it shows you're right and you release it then you have a much easier time and don't have to deal with FOIA requests, people dogging you all the time, mistrust.

In other words, the only rational reason I can see (I'm of course no cop, nor no lawyer) is that departments don't release this stuff because then they can't cover their selves with a heavy duty lawyer team that the department/union pays for.

As far as one of the cops having already shot somebody, I'm not going to count this incident or that incident as either justified or non-justified, and they have little relation to one another, if this one is justified than he just got the unlucky ticket in job options, if it was unjustified than he either has bad luck (the past one was justified) or he is habitually not the best decider of actions.

With that said, subscribing to this topic so I can keep up, please keep this going, I'd really hate to have people forget about it.

[WildBill]

I think that one of the reasons that this post is consuming some people is that this is the exact sitution which we hoped would never happen to a CHL. There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of posts on this Forum where people have expressed fears and concerns about printing or accidently exposing their handgun. There have been hundreds of posts expressing fears of someone seeing an exposed gun and "freaking out and running down the aisles yelling and screaming and calling 911."

There has never been a verified case of this happening - until now. Maybe the Costco employee didn't yell and scream and run down the aisles, but he or she did freak out and call 911. The end result is something that we all fear.

[jinzai]

It'll be many months or even years before facts come out in this case.

Sure, the witness reports differ, but they always do in cases like this. Video, if it exists, may corroborate one or another witness account, or muddy the waters further.

Cops have an extremely difficult job to do, and they don't always receive the best or most complete training, OJT or otherwise. In addition, it appears that Scott made some very poor choices as to how he handled the situation.

Apparently, Scott knew the store employees were alarmed by seeing his carry weapon. Was it worth it for him to "win" an argument with a store employee over his right to carry legally? Was it wise to allow such a situation to escalate to the point that it caused store employees to evacuate the store? Was it worth it in this case for Scott to wait until the incident escalated to police involvement? Would it have been a wiser decision on his part to simply leave the store immediately upon being confronted by store employees, and never shop there again?

We can't tell if the police did or did not react in a manner that was against department policy and state law at this point. However, I will say that these sort of cases have a funny way of playing out in the favor of the department and officers in question. I doubt that these officers will be found at fault, or that the prosecutor will even send the case to a grand jury. Chances are this will all play out in civil court, the family will settle, and it will all be forgotten in a few years... except by CHL instructors and license holders, who will likely change the way they think about how they interact with LEOs when carrying.

IMHO, the bottom line is just what other posters have stated in this thread, and the same thing my CHL instructors taught me - if you're involved in an incident and the police show up, hands up and out slowly away from your body and freeze until they instruct you otherwise. I'd rather be tackled, cuffed, have the tar beat out of me and be alive with cause for a civil action than shot and dead with cause for a civil action.

[Pinkycatcher]

Sure, the witness reports differ, but they always do in cases like this. Video, if it exists, may corroborate one or another witness account, or muddy the waters further.

How would video muddy the waters?

[baldeagle]

I think that one of the reasons that this post is consuming some people is that this is the exact sitution which we hoped would never happen to a CHL. There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of posts on this Forum where people have expressed fears and concerns about printing or accidently exposing their handgun. There have been hundreds of posts expressing fears of someone seeing an exposed gun and "freaking out and running down the aisles yelling and screaming and calling 911."

There has never been a verified case of this happening - until now. Maybe the Costco employee didn't yell and scream and run down the aisles, but he or she did freak out and call 911. The end result is something that we all fear.

You hit the nail on the head, Wild Bill.

[PeteCamp]

Apparently, Scott knew the store employees were alarmed by seeing his carry weapon. Was it worth it for him to "win" an argument with a store employee over his right to carry legally? Was it wise to allow such a situation to escalate to the point that it caused store employees to evacuate the store? Was it worth it in this case for Scott to wait until the incident escalated to police involvement? Would it have been a wiser decision on his part to simply leave the store immediately upon being confronted by store employees, and never shop there again?

We can't tell if the police did or did not react in a manner that was against department policy and state law at this point. However, I will say that these sort of cases have a funny way of playing out in the favor of the department and officers in question.

I'm sorry but IMHO you are assuming an awful lot of facts that simply are not in evidence yet and bringing judgement based upon media reports, hearsay, and unsworn witness statements.

WildBill.....Very well said sir.

[seamusTX]

How would video muddy the waters?

Video shows only what happened in front of the camera, and only from one angle. It does not show what happened before or after, or out of view. It does not show things from the point of view of people on the ground.

This problem has existed since practical photography was developed. People take a photo or now video as "proof." It is nothing of the sort. It can be biased and subjective, even if not outright fabricated.

I offer you this photo, which those with gray hair will remember:

This photo changed the course of history, along with this one:


- Jim

[WildBill]

How would video muddy the waters?

Video shows only what happened in front of the camera, and only from one angle. It does not show what happened before or after, or out of view. It does not show things from the point of view of people on the ground.

This problem has existed since practical photography was developed. People take a photo or now video as "proof." It is nothing of the sort. It can be biased and subjective, even if not outright fabricated.

I offer you this photo, which those with gray hair will remember:
This photo changed the course of history, along with this one:

- Jim

I remember both photographs. Google "Famous Vietnam War Photos" for some history.

In more recent history, during the Rodney King case, the same videos that acquitted the police officers in one trial were used to convict them in the Federal trial.

[longtooth]

I remember too & those along w/ some of Hanoi Jane that also go under the title
Never Forget



Now we, including this Mod, need to get back on topic. Out of VietNaim & back into vagas.

[Oldgringo]

{SIGH} I remember seeing them on the evening news as it was happening...and it doesn't seem to be that long ago.