Anyone been to the Frontsight training

[HeeHaw]

I attended (and graduated) the Front Sight four Defensive Pistol course. I even have my silver sealed photograph of Dr. Piazza to prove it!

Don't you just love those things.

[USMC-COL]

I was invited to FS to consider being on their instructor staff. I attended, along with several other fellow instructor candidates, listened to their "message" and spent a day at their range. After almost one full day, I was not impressed with what I saw and did and we decided to agree to disagree on methods. Their exclusive iron-clad one-way contract would not have allowed me to teach anything of tactical value to anyone at any time (armed or unarmed) outside of their schoolhouse. I refused to sign such a contract. I was also not impressed with the offered salary. Instructors cannot deviate from their every line during a class so there is no new information coming in from the outside. It must be done their way 100% with absolutely no deviation - regardless of the vast amount of experience that was present. Its a "robotic" atmosphere from my perspective. Not my "cup of tea" Other's mileage may vary. After the first day, I caught the next flight out of Las Vegas.

[tacticool]

Instructors cannot deviate from their every line during a class so there is no new information coming in from the outside. It must be done their way 100% with absolutely no deviation

If I had a CHL school, I think I would require the same. I wouldn't want a rogue instructor teaching students that a drop of alcohol makes you intoxicated, or that churches are off limits even if there's no 30.06 sign, or forgetting to teach something, or telling students they should always shoot if they present the firearm. Having a strict lesson plan helps to ensure consistency, similar to a pre-flight checklist. Some people like that and others don't. It also doesn't mean things never change, but rather that they change in a controlled way as a result of decisions at the top instead of haphazardly.

[WildBill]

I was invited to FS to consider being on their instructor staff. I attended, along with several other fellow instructor candidates, listened to their "message" and spent a day at their range. After almost one full day, I was not impressed with what I saw and did and we decided to agree to disagree on methods.

Thanks for your post about your firsthand experience.

[G.A. Heath]

Instructors cannot deviate from their every line during a class so there is no new information coming in from the outside. It must be done their way 100% with absolutely no deviation

If I had a CHL school, I think I would require the same. I wouldn't want a rogue instructor teaching students that a drop of alcohol makes you intoxicated, or that churches are off limits even if there's no 30.06 sign, or forgetting to teach something, or telling students they should always shoot if they present the firearm. Having a strict lesson plan helps to ensure consistency, similar to a pre-flight checklist. Some people like that and others don't. It also doesn't mean things never change, but rather that they change in a controlled way as a result of decisions at the top instead of haphazardly.

If your hiring someone for their expertise then you want them to teach it and not what everyone else reads off a script. And the "business" in question is not just a CHL school, it supposedly exists to teach people about when and how to shoot.

[Cobra Medic]

If I hire a gunsmith to build me a custom 1911, I want them to use their expertise to make me the best pistol they can, within my budget and other constraints. I defer to them how to do a trigger job.

However, if I hire someone to work in my 1911 factory, I want them to follow the template and build a 1911 to company specs. The tigger, sear, etc should be done the company way, even if they think they know better.

Neither philosophy is right or wrong per se but they are different.

[WildBill]

Neither philosophy is right or wrong per se but they are different.

There's that phrase again.

If your hiring someone for their expertise then you want them to teach it and not what everyone else reads off a script. And the "business" in question is not just a CHL school, it supposedly exists to teach people about when and how to shoot.

They are not hiring people for their expertise. They can hire anyone off the street and "teach" them to parrot their company philosophy. IMO, the reason that they interview and hire some experienced veterans is that it looks good on their brochures and advertisments. I have seen it before. It is not unique to FS. This is a very common for certain training companies where their instructors look and act like they came from "central casting."

[HeeHaw]

They do require the instructors to teach their exact curriculum. Pretty much reading exactly from a script. But they do change their curriculum all the time. If an instructor or student presents something different that is better suited for a certain purpose then they change their curriculum. I have been in classes where a student said it makes no sense to do it this way when this way would be better. I few months later I was taking a class and they did infact change their curriculum to that exact thing.

That part of things is nice because they are always trying to evolve and offer something better. I do agree that they should have a very strict culliculum for the foundation classes. It would suck taking a class one day, they a month later taking it from another instructor and a bunch of things being different. It is hard enough for new shooters to pick it up let alone having to try and mow through different ways of doing things.

One thing that never gets talked about because 90% of people only ever take their foundation classes is that the curriculum becomes not so important or strict. When you get to the advanced classes the instructors do get to start teaching other ways to do things and they are able to show you tactics and skill sets that they have specialized in. The strict modified weaver stance is no longer talked about. If you shoot better isosceles then you get to shoot that way. They could really care less as long as you are safe and are making good hits on the targets. In reality if a person ever got in a defensive situation, no one is going to have time to blade off and do everything just like they teach on the square range. They realize that and know that, and they teach all that is important is to keep the gun running and make hits. How you accomplish that does not really matter so much.

They have a guy come in that teaches their most advanced classes named Kirby Reed. The first time I took a class from him it was crazy how different what he taught was from FS's basic curriculum. But at the same time all of those basics I learn in the foundation classes made it so I could perform in his classes. Yes he may have done things differently, but at the same time all the important things I learned before like sight alignment, trigger control, recoil control, etc, etc. All fell right into place and allowed me to perform well in his classes.

[pbwalker]

http://www.fscerts.com/front-sight-cour ... -explained



Here is the cached page: http://bit.ly/anNpAw

I never knew certain levels of membership also included home lots! Interesting...

[HeeHaw]

I never knew certain levels of membership also included home lots! Interesting...

That was actually a big part of the law suit against them. They never did develop them, not sure if they are ever going too. I would have sued them as well if I had paid $200,000 for a membership and they never delivered.

[father]

It's not very different from the golf country club communities in theory but you have to be smart enough not to pay the developer before your house is built.

[KinnyLee]

I went and had a good time. I really had a better time with KinnyLee goofing around on the strip than I had at the school. The drive from Texas is beautiful in the winter. Kinny took me as a guest with his free certificate so I had no expenses outside of travel (and an awesome Emerson knife I bought in the pro shop).

The training (IMO) was a bit dated when it came to teaching the Weaver stance and thum-on-thumb grip. That said, the instructors had practiced these forms enough to be impressive and they did help some of the people improve.

Safety? I guess the firing line was fairly safe. I only refused once to participate with someone who I was partnered with. When I put my gun away and sat down, the staff realized the poor old guy was dangerous and issued him a rubber gun.

I would not choose to go back to front sight simply because they do not challenge their students in the basic (read affordable) courses.

I was able to skip the sales pitch by skipping lunch inside of the facility on the second day. There was no pressure on site to join their organization. The mass mailings are ridiculous and the phone calls are even more irritating.

Best part of the experience was the seminars, in my opinion, their awareness seminar is second to none.

Jason

Had a blast going that year and will plan on going again in Dec 2011
As for my opinion, their classes are run by scripts, and they run on a tight schedule. The training is a bit dated compared to others but it is a good foundation to build on. They do push on memberships, but like Jason said, it's not as annoying as the email and snailmail ads. I just delete them as soon as one comes into my inbox. lol. Overall, their training is great and their staff is very friendly and helpful. Their business model does not agree with a lot of people (me included), but it is a somewhat cost effective way for me to train when I have time and funds. Hope that helps the OP.

PS. Jason, you think they will open up the "big hole" (North Rim of Grand Canyon) December of next year?

[Thomas]

http://www.fscerts.com/front-sight-cour ... -explained



Here is the cached page: http://bit.ly/anNpAw

I never knew certain levels of membership also included home lots! Interesting...

Unfortunately Google's cache of it no longer exists.

Can anyone tell me what it used to say? Thanks in advance.