OH: Robbery victim shoots robber with robber's gun

[Excaliber]

Reading this story had me wondering what the heck is wrong with Ohio. The BG who died was 20 years old. He had just gotten out of prison from a two year sentence for "robbery and weapons charges" and that was his second prison sentence. He had previously been convicted, at the age of seventeen, and sentenced to one year for robbery. If I were a citizen of Ohio, I would be furious with the legal system for such light sentencing for deadly serious crimes. The dead BG demonstrated complete contempt for the Ohio legal system by attempting to commit armed robbery just one week after being released from prison.

Contempt for any form of law or authority is nearly universal among violent criminals.

So is the absolute conviction that they're smart enough not to get caught. Getting caught doesn't disturb this mindset at all.

They scheme with others in prison (who by definition also got caught) to learn what they did wrong and how to do it better next time. They then go back to doing the same things again with "new improved" tactics upon release, and the absolute conviction that this time they've finally got it together and won't get caught. Until they do get caught again.

They repeat this sequence until either the third strike felony conviction and a life sentence, or a terminal encounter with either one of their local acquaintances or an intended victim.

Cunning, yes - smart, no.

[Excaliber]

One has to ask, when one is hungry has no money and effectively homeless, he most likely will attack like mad grizzlies. Not justifying the crime, but one has to offer jobs for those convicts. Many will never give a job for violent criminals.

The idea that criminals are driven to commit violent crimes by economic need is a false construct of the media. The hungriest and most needy folks out there are among the least likely to engage in this conduct.

The same media breathlessly predict a tsunami of crime every time unemployment spikes, and then are astonished when it doesn't materialize. Street cops aren't surprised at all.

The guys sticking guns in the ribs of people in parking lots are the vicious sociopaths like the one who gunned down the two young men outside a DFW area Christian music studio a couple years ago for two dollars and a set of car keys. When one of them was later asked during a videotaped post arrest interview what he had to say to the families of the victims who were devastated by the loss, he said "F@$# 'em."

Legitimate economic need is not among their motivations, unless you count a drug habit as a need.

Edit:

In reference to parolees' employment prospects, remember that prior conduct is the best predictor of future conduct. Bearing that and the fact that employers can be held liable for damages and injuries caused by people who were hired despite a violent past in mind, would you want the company your wife works for to hire a few of these folks to work with her?

Actions have consequences.

[Beiruty]

Instead of letting the parolee or released convict on their own to start from scratch, there should be transition program and employment in a "controlled" public sector until those convicts can support themselves and stay clear from resorting to criminal activities.

Surely, there are many hardened criminals who find enjoyment by terrorizing their victims and most likely those should end in life behind bars or executed.
However, many who offended in their early years are a product of neglecting parents or parents who most likely are in prison, those kids had the street gangs as their parents. and family. Selling Drugs and robberies are main source of their income. Unless your break their supporting system and provide an alternative, the solution is not complete.

What is most shocking, those in the correction system should screen and categorize the most dangerous offenders and not letting lose so early.

BTW, why we do not have anymore "the rock" an island where no one ever wants to visit?

[seamusTX]

Instead of letting the parolee or released convict on their own to start from scratch, there should be transition program and employment in a "controlled" public sector until those convicts can support themselves and stay clear from resorting to criminal activities.

There are such programs, but the convict has to express a desire and eligibility for them. There also are charitable private employers who will go out of their way to hire released convicts.

However, felons are prohibited by law from working many jobs. They can never work in a school or hospital or hold any licensed position such as electrician or commercial truck driver. Also many are functionally illiterate, have no computer skills, and posses a "who you talkin' to?" attitude and foul vocabulary.

BTW, why we do not have anymore "the rock" an island where no one ever wants to visit?

Alcatraz was too expensive to maintain.

More unfortunately, going to prison has become a right of passage among gang members, and it's more like a family reunion for them than punishment. Some of them actually do better in the structured environment of prison than on the street, where they are subject to violence from rivals and trying to make a living by very unreliable criminal methods.

- Jim

[ELB]

Frankly, I do not believe that once a criminal, particularly a violent one, has reached adulthood, that there is much liklihood of reform, at least until he is much older (like at least 50). Once his psyche/moral system has formed to a certain degree, it is very hard to break. If he is basically honest and peaceful, then great. If not, we are in for a lot of trouble until he gets too old to act out or just loses the compulsion (or is dead).

I know everybody can cite at least one "success" story, but they are notable for rarity. Recidivism rates consistently run in the 70-80 percent range or higher, no matter what programs get applied.

I do believe that if you can intervene earlier, in the early and mid-teens, you have a chance to turn a kid around. A teen's psychological state is still malleable enough to allow for some large changes. This malleability can go either way --- he (or she) falls in with the gang/drug culture, he can easily be led to extremes, and we get these vicious kill-without-remorse types that scare the daylights out of cops (and everyone else). If he or she can be put in a structured setting, with close supervision and straightforward rewards and punishments, that same malleability allows him to be brought back. Normally you would depend on parents to provide this environment ("Train up a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old he will not depart from it...") but there are a lot of parents these days that can't manage their own lives, nevermind their children's lives.

There is a national non-profit organization (AMIkids.org) that deals with this, and they have had some pretty good successes. (I am on the board of one of its Texas programs). It started in Florida back in the 60s in Miami and focused on teenage boys, but includes girls now, and has about 50 programs in several states (including Texas). It takes teenage offenders, gets them out of the usual juvenile prison system, and runs them through a program of behavioral modification, study (towards HS diploma or GED), usually some vocational training, and some "life skills."

Some programs do slightly better than others, but the national average is 70-80 percent success rate. Success being defined as once graduated from the program, the youth does not re-offend within three years. If you know anything about recidivism rates for adults, you recognize this as an amazing success rate. Teens are screened for the programs, they don't just put anyone in it, but the teens are not all minor offenders either. Some do not graduate, but most do, and they usually stay out of trouble. It is pretty amazing to me how well the programs do.

But as I said above, I think the prognosis for an adult offender is pretty dim, regardless of what goodies you throw his way to help him change. Despite all the opportunity given, most seem unwilling to take them or stick to them.

[ELB]

The guys sticking guns in the ribs of people in parking lots are the vicious sociopaths like the one who gunned down the two young men outside a DFW area Christian music studio a couple years ago for two dollars and a set of car keys. When one of them was later asked during a videotaped post arrest interview what he had to say to the families of the victims who were devastated by the loss, he said "F@$# 'em."

I think Excalibur is referring to (what I think of as) the Garland killings. One of the men killed had a CHL -- but he wasn't carrying at the time. His mother (also a CHL'er) said he normally carried all the time -- in fact, she told the police that her son's killers must have taken his gun, because the police did not find it on his body. But it was later found at his home.

This is an account of the incident: http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008 ... ng-us.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is a letter by the CHL instructor of the young man: http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008 ... myers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is the interview of the one of the killers that Excalibur refers to: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the killers (Broadnax, the one who gave the interview) got the death sentence. I cannot determine what happened to the other one (Cummings).
Update: The Facebook page of one of the victim's family members says Cummings will face trial in early 2011. Don't know why so much later -- Broadnax was tried in 2009.

[Excaliber]

The guys sticking guns in the ribs of people in parking lots are the vicious sociopaths like the one who gunned down the two young men outside a DFW area Christian music studio a couple years ago for two dollars and a set of car keys. When one of them was later asked during a videotaped post arrest interview what he had to say to the families of the victims who were devastated by the loss, he said "F@$# 'em."

I think Excalibur is referring to (what I think of as) the Garland killings. One of the men killed had a CHL -- but he wasn't carrying at the time. His mother (also a CHL'er) said he normally carried all the time -- in fact, she told the police that her son's killers must have taken his gun, because the police did not find it on his body. But it was later found at his home.

This is an account of the incident: http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008 ... ng-us.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is a letter by the CHL instructor of the young man: http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008 ... myers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is the interview of the one of the killers that Excalibur refers to: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the killers (Broadnax, the one who gave the interview) got the death sentence. I cannot determine what happened to the other one (Cummings).
Update: The Facebook page of one of the victim's family members says Cummings will face trial in early 2011. Don't know why so much later -- Broadnax was tried in 2009.

Thanks, ELB - that is the case I referred to but didn't have the specifics handy.

It is a sad illustration of the wisdom of what happens when someone relies on the "guess right" part of "carry 24/7 or guess right, " even for someone who "almost always" carries, and the remorseless savagery that characterizes the folks who commit these crimes.

[baldeagle]

Thanks, ELB - that is the case I referred to but didn't have the specifics handy.

It is a sad illustration of the wisdom of what happens when someone relies on the "guess right" part of "carry 24/7 or guess right, " even for someone who "almost always" carries, and the remorseless savagery that characterizes the folks who commit these crimes.

In my reading of that story, it's not altogether certain that his weapon would have helped him. Situational awareness might have been more effectual. Once he was shot and on the ground, he might have been able to return fire before he was executed, but the story makes it seem like it happened fast enough that he might not have even been able to draw, much less get off a shot.

[Excaliber]

Thanks, ELB - that is the case I referred to but didn't have the specifics handy.

It is a sad illustration of the wisdom of what happens when someone relies on the "guess right" part of "carry 24/7 or guess right, " even for someone who "almost always" carries, and the remorseless savagery that characterizes the folks who commit these crimes.

In my reading of that story, it's not altogether certain that his weapon would have helped him. Situational awareness might have been more effectual. Once he was shot and on the ground, he might have been able to return fire before he was executed, but the story makes it seem like it happened fast enough that he might not have even been able to draw, much less get off a shot.

He would have had to recognize the danger well before he was shot to survive.

From a detailed reading of multiple accounts of how the incident developed, including the suspects' statements, it happened over an uncharacteristically extended period of time and included a very long prelude conversation and two separate instances of perpetrator approach. I'm pretty sure the victims knew they were in serious trouble at least by the time of the second approach and before they were shot if not much earlier, but they weren't prepared to do anything to stop it.

[Bart]

You can employ convicted felons if you want. However, I don't think any business should be required (or encouraged with tax-funded bribes) to employ convicted felons.

If a convict wants to turn their life around, there are many manual labor jobs where employers don't ask too many questions. They can also start their own business if they think they deserve to start at the top.

[ELB]

In my reading of that story, it's not altogether certain that his weapon would have helped him. Situational awareness ...

Of course you have to recognize the threat to deal with it...

Unless his church or the recording studio was posted, I didn't see anything in the info provided that said he could not have legally had is gun with him for the evening. So, presuming that he saw future threats as unlikely, he left the gun at home, perhaps? I would suspect that reversing the order a bit might have helped; i.e. just the action of putting on the gun might have subconsciously triggered his threat radar a bit.

[csmintx]

I can only speak for myself here, but at the risk of appearing paronoid, I believe one must always view any approach by a stranger on the street as a threat. If you are approached on the street by a dog you initially view it as a potentially threatening situation, and it is incumbent on the dog to change that. The same should be true for a person. In either case you must take control of the situation, not allow it to control you. That requires that you forget your good manners and protocols that you were taught. It requires that you firmly and forcefully portray to the person who approaches you that you are perfectly capable and willing to do whatever it takes to control the situation. Personally, I do not care about the other person's circumstances, disadvantaged surroundings, damaged self-esteem, or anything else at that point, no more than I empathize for a rabid dog. People like those in the story simply do not have the right to do that.

[seamusTX]

I can only speak for myself here, but at the risk of appearing paronoid, I believe one must always view any approach by a stranger on the street as a threat.

You speak for me.

No one approaches a stranger with entirely benevolent intentions.

At best they are religious proselytizers that want you to join their church instead of the one that you currently belong to, as if you didn't know the correct route to salvation.

They might be selling something legally, but people figure out pretty quickly that you can't make a living selling stuff on the street.

More likely they are bums, scammers, robbers, kooks, or purveyors of some illegal trade.

- Jim