Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

[RPB]

I almost posted this as a new thread but I see other posts here for imprope 30.06. Recently went to Pasadena Police Department to obtain an accident report and Failure to Stop and Give information for an incident. A guy hit my truck and took off. (Officers were able to arrest him shortly after and additionally charged him with PI) Anyway I noticed a 30.06 at the entrance; even has a gun buster symbol. The area inside is not a secured area and I knew it was bogus but took my CCW back to my truck. I am still trying to get copies of the accident report so I didn't feel like antagonizing anyone there by asking the obvious question of the uniformed officer behind the counter. Any way, how does one pursue this to determine who authorized a flagrant violation of the laws? Sorry it's not a better picture but I didn't want to be too obvious.




additional photo added

I moved from Pasadena around 2005-ish or 2007-ish, but I used to customize Remington 870s for some officers, and gave others their first Glocks and body armor years ago.

Last time I was in the P.D., I seem to remember on the right as you enter, there are elevators, there was a courtroom to the right, municipal court I think, also I was at a jury duty there if you go to the left at the information desk/counter, go to the end of that hall, take a right, was a jury assembly room.

Accident reports/records are to the left of the information desk/counter, at a window that I think has a steel roll-up door thingy. (I wonder if Mary still works there)
If the court etc is still in that building, no sign is necessary, you can't carry, even if there is no "Court" that day and the judge's secretary is out of her office. (offices used by a Court) but that "invalid" sign is sort of an "unofficial" notice that you may not carry there, (not because of police, but because of offices used by Court).
It may have changed since then.

In Burnet, Texas the "municipal offices" where you pay your utility bill has no sign or notice that the building contains the Municipal COURT either, so no notice until inside the building and you see the "Pay Court Fines Here" cashier etc.

All Courts should be required to post a sign saying COURT. BUT, many Municipal Courts fail to give a licensee any notice at all that the building contains "offices USED BY a COURT," much less an "invalid" 30.06 sign.

If the court is still in that Pasadena Police Building, you were wise to leave it in the truck .... by the way, I understand by a good source, that there used to be microphones in the ceiling, and cameras, in the Pasadena Police Dept building there.. couldn't say if there are now ... (I always whispered)

[puma guy]

I almost posted this as a new thread but I see other posts here for imprope 30.06. Recently went to Pasadena Police Department to obtain an accident report and Failure to Stop and Give information for an incident. A guy hit my truck and took off. (Officers were able to arrest him shortly after and additionally charged him with PI) Anyway I noticed a 30.06 at the entrance; even has a gun buster symbol. The area inside is not a secured area and I knew it was bogus but took my CCW back to my truck. I am still trying to get copies of the accident report so I didn't feel like antagonizing anyone there by asking the obvious question of the uniformed officer behind the counter. Any way, how does one pursue this to determine who authorized a flagrant violation of the laws? Sorry it's not a better picture but I didn't want to be too obvious.




additional photo added

I moved from Pasadena around 2005-ish or 2007-ish, but I used to customize Remington 870s for some officers, and gave others their first Glocks and body armor years ago.

Last time I was in the P.D., I seem to remember on the right as you enter, there are elevators, there was a courtroom to the right, municipal court I think, also I was at a jury duty there if you go to the left at the information desk/counter, go to the end of that hall, take a right, was a jury assembly room.

Accident reports/records are to the left of the information desk/counter, at a window that I think has a steel roll-up door thingy. (I wonder if Mary still works there)
If the court etc is still in that building, no sign is necessary, you can't carry, even if there is no "Court" that day and the judge's secretary is out of her office. (offices used by a Court) but that "invalid" sign is sort of an "unofficial" notice that you may not carry there, (not because of police, but because of offices used by Court).
It may have changed since then.

In Burnet, Texas the "municipal offices" where you pay your utility bill has no sign or notice that the building contains the Municipal COURT either, so no notice until inside the building and you see the "Pay Court Fines Here" cashier etc.

All Courts should be required to post a sign saying COURT. BUT, many Municipal Courts fail to give a licensee any notice at all that the building contains "offices USED BY a COURT," much less an "invalid" 30.06 sign.

If the court is still in that Pasadena Police Building, you were wise to leave it in the truck .... by the way, I understand by a good source, that there used to be microphones in the ceiling, and cameras, in the Pasadena Police Dept building there.. couldn't say if there are now ... (I always whispered)

You may be perhaps referencing the old building whick I recall had courts in it. I don't know if there are any in this building or not, though I would think there would be something directiond one to the courtroom and I saw no such signage. The set up here is a two double doors with a vestibule and immediately to the left a small enclosed completely glassed area with an officer sometimes poste. The only way to communicate is a small box to the left that rarely works and as you proceed on the same side the counter and glassed in clerks. I still have to go back as the officer who made the call hasn't filed the crash report (it's been almost two months now). Have no idea what's up with that. When I return I will take a better look around. The new station is listed as being 1114 Jeff Ginn however it's actually on Davis I believe.
In my younger days I knew many of the officers, but they're retired or moved on.

[puma guy]

I went to the Pasadena Police Department Station again this morning and got my report. I checked to make sure there is no courtroom munincipal, civil or criminal in the building and confirmed there is NOT one. As I am not enthralled with being a test case even if I could afford it I am still trying to find out how to ascertain who authorized the notice being posted in the first place. Suggestions are appreciated.

[RPB]

ok, yeah I guess that's a newer police building than when I lived there
--------

You could do a similar thing to what I did with Dripping Springs city owned parks
Just looks like you could e-mail the City Attorney of Pasadena and he could advise them to move the sign from the front door to the secured area.


I'd just e-mail or send a letter to the city attorney, maybe it's Lee Clark? Along with a photo of the invalid sign. Then Lee could advise the police dept to remove the invalid sign. I don;t know that city council even needs to get involved and put you on the published "agenda" for a meeting ... contact Lee, he can tell you.
As of May 2010, Lee Clark was city Attorney
http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/e ... 000904.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
lists mailing address as:
Richard Risinger
Deputy City Attorney
LEE CLARK, City Attorney
City of Pasadena
P.O. Box 672
Pasadena, Texas 77501
------------------------
Lee Clark
City Attorney
Phone: (713) 475-5515


If it is important to you or the attorney "who authorized" placing the invalid sign, contact city secretary on city's website and under city secretary, ... is open records act info
http://www.ci.pasadena.tx.us/docs/33-Open_Rec.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But the attorney may find out on his own who posted it.

You already know where to go to copy/paste the relevant sections of Penal Code, regarding PENAL Institution and places of execution etc etc ...
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
Sec. 46.10. DEADLY WEAPON IN PENAL INSTITUTION.
etc etc
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The only way I can imagine that sign being valid is if there was a
government meeting" going on at the time.... so I'd ask where is the meeting (open meetings act?)
--------------
Below is E-mail to City Attorney etc of Dripping Springs, use any you want that might be helpful.

To: Touchstone, Jo Ann
Subject: City Attorney, City Council
Importance: High



To: City Attorney and City Council

City of Dripping Springs
P.O. Box 384
Dripping Springs, Texas 78620



RE: City Ordinance issue



It appears that a city Ordinance needs to be amended.

http://www.cityofdrippingsprings.com/do ... 510.04.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



4.09 Weapons and Firearms

A. Patrons shall not carry or possess weapons while in park facilities.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe all the parks listed on the above URL are city property and therefore cannot prohibit CHL carry.

Local Government Code LGC
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LGC 229.001
-------------------------



-----------------------------------------------------


Local Government Code LGC
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LGC 229.001

229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms,
ammunition, or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a
municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed
for personal or national defense, law enforcement, or another
lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the
limits of the municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a
business, or uses at a business under the municipality's fire code,
zoning ordinance, or land-use regulations as long as the code,
ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of
Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5) of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an
insurrection, riot, or natural disaster if the municipality finds
the regulations necessary to protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of
explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25
pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50
pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not
subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person
other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or
other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official
political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or
professional athletic event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not
apply if the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area
designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting
event and the firearm is of the type commonly used in the activity.

So, that ordinance, to be compliant with the LGC, must be regulating the carrying of firearms by non-licensees ("other than"). Cities can do that, they just didn't incorporate the exception like Horseshoe Bay did. They should fix that.

========================
I have forwarded your email as requested to the City Attorney and City Council.



Thank you,



Jo Ann Touchstone

City Secretary

[RPB]

I couldn't find Lee Clark's E-mail address, but I still know quite a few guys at Pasadena PD (I plan to visit next month, so it concerns me still)

I E-mailed Chief Michael W. Thaler ... I'll post any reply, if nothing happens you could contact the city Attorney.
http://www.ci.pasadena.tx.us/default.as ... .directory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MWThaler@ci.pasadena.tx.us
09/17/2010 07:38 PM
Subject: Sign needs fixing

There appears to be an invalid 30.06 sign on the front door of the Pasadena Police Dept. Building
Officers and the city could be prime targets for a §1983 civil rights lawsuit if any concealed license holder is arrested without cause, for doing something that is not illegal.
I'd remove the invalid sign so no officer mistakenly believes that it is an offense and arrests a licensee, and puts the city at risk of a civil rights lawsuit..
You could check with Lee, the city Attorney if there are any questions.


http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... tm#229.001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms,
ammunition, or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a
municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed
for personal or national defense, law enforcement, or another
lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the
limits of the municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a
business, or uses at a business under the municipality's fire code,
zoning ordinance, or land-use regulations as long as the code,
ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of
Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5) of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an
insurrection, riot, or natural disaster if the municipality finds
the regulations necessary to protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of
explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25
pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50
pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not
subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person
other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or
other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official
political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or
professional athletic event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not
apply if the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area
designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting
event and the firearm is of the type commonly used in the activity.


http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... .htm#30.06" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... .htm#46.03" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... htm#46.035" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Attached is a photo of the invalid sign which should be removed

[battalion74]

ELB, Regarding Bexar County Tax Office:

I was talking to a off duty sheriff's deputy at work a few weeks ago, he informed me that their is a CHL instructor here in San Antonio that's pursuing it legal wise. Not sure if that means taking them to court or investigating it. He just mentioned it on the way out the door.
I usually ask on duty and off duty officers the same question to see their answers. Some didn't know the law changed, some were adamant that I was wrong. Some were trying to defend their reason by kind of stating that city and county law over rules state. Others were going with as long as its posted, its illegal.
One deputy was telling me that the Tax Office was a business, so it could post. He didn't want to talk about any more when I asked "Then why is the Tax Assessor elected"?

[ELB]

ELB, Regarding Bexar County Tax Office:
etc

Thanks.

[KD5NRH]

I couldn't find Lee Clark's E-mail address, but I still know quite a few guys at Pasadena PD (I plan to visit next month, so it concerns me still)

Should be cool enough for a trenchcoat next month, and 30.06 only applies to handguns...

[Bird of Prey]

Went to the civic center in McAllen, Tx. for a car show and saw some awesome classic cars as well as this on the front door to the building:

[C-dub]

Regarding police stations, this may be a ridiculous question, could a meeting between two officers be considered a government meeting? I don't remember if there is a definition of a government meeting. I don't mean to defend, but rather to try think of a possible reason why they would be posted and if it could be construed this way by a judge.

[seamusTX]

Regarding police stations, this may be a ridiculous question, could a meeting between two officers be considered a government meeting? I don't remember if there is a definition of a government meeting.

This question has been discussed earlier in this thread.

Government body and meeting are defined in the Texas Open Meetings Act, which you can find in the Government Code § 551.001.

A government body is composed of elected or appointed officials, and a meeting must be announced with a public agenda posted in advance.

Any informal encounter or meeting that has less than a quorum is specifically not an official meeting.

- Jim

[puma guy]

Regarding police stations, this may be a ridiculous question, could a meeting between two officers be considered a government meeting? I don't remember if there is a definition of a government meeting. I don't mean to defend, but rather to try think of a possible reason why they would be posted and if it could be construed this way by a judge.

I think it means official meetings. Streets are property owned by the city so two sanitation workes could meet to discuss trach pickup stategy and logisticsthereby negating my rights under CHL law. I know that's ridiculous maybe but LEO's are city employees and as are sanitation workers.

EDIT: Thanks SeamusTX, I type too slowly.

[C-dub]

Thanks to both of you. It has been a while since I've been through this entire thread.

[RPB]

Went to the civic center in McAllen, Tx. for a car show and saw some awesome classic cars as well as this on the front door to the building:

I wonder what the fine is if you sNoke, since that's the only sign there that applies to a CHL.