City Ordinance banning guns in city owned buildings.

[Sputz]

Our city has this ordinance with the gunbuster sign posted on its city buildings including city community centers referencing 30.05. I thought they were not allowed to do this and as chl holders we can ignore their gun buster sign and code reference. After searching the site this is my conclusion but want to make sure. Do/Should I contact the city about this?

Sputz

Sec. 70-14. - Concealed handguns prohibited.

The carrying of any concealed handgun by any person unless such person is a licensed peace officer under the laws of the state and is carrying a concealed handgun under the course and scope of his employment, is prohibited on all city-owned premises. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a concealed handgun in violation of the provisions of this section. The city manager is hereby authorized to post notice of this prohibition at the entrance of all city premises. Any person carrying a concealed handgun in violation of this prohibition shall be considered to be entering the premises of the city in violation of Penal Code § 30.05, being the criminal trespass statute of the state.

[ScottDLS]

Our city has this ordinance with the gunbuster sign posted on its city buildings including city community centers referencing 30.05. I thought they were not allowed to do this and as chl holders we can ignore their gun buster sign and code reference. After searching the site this is my conclusion but want to make sure. Do/Should I contact the city about this?

Sputz

Sec. 70-14. - Concealed handguns prohibited.

The carrying of any concealed handgun by any person unless such person is a licensed peace officer under the laws of the state and is carrying a concealed handgun under the course and scope of his employment, is prohibited on all city-owned premises. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a concealed handgun in violation of the provisions of this section. The city manager is hereby authorized to post notice of this prohibition at the entrance of all city premises. Any person carrying a concealed handgun in violation of this prohibition shall be considered to be entering the premises of the city in violation of Penal Code § 30.05, being the criminal trespass statute of the state.

Quick question...What city is this?

Anyway, you are correct that the sign does not have the force of law for CHL holder carrying. If you choose to contact your city manager, you should refer him/her to Local Government Code 229.001

LGC §229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition,
or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has
under another law to:
...
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a
person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H,
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental
body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic
event.
...

And also....

PC §30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense
if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including
residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a
building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and
the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
...
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the
building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license
issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

This all means that their ordinance is void and they can not use the Trespass Statute 30.05 to convict you of a crime.

[Sputz]

This is down in the valley, Mcallen to be specific. I have noticed them in other cities down here.

Sputz

[RPB]

ScottDLS left me nothing to add except, for whatever it's worth

Our County Tax Appraisal District has similar old signs too, up in Central Texas. I think they print a new 8.5"x11" one out every year saying the same/similar thing and scotch taping it up on the door. I keep forgetting to photo it.

I much prefer the one in my niece's doctor's office, also printed on 8.5x11" paper, "Guns are illegal here by law" (It takes less time to read, allowing more time to chuckle. While waiting for the nurse to call for my niece, I wondered...
"illegal by law"? how else would something be illegal? [even if it was true, which of course, it isn't]) this generates a LOLWUT each time I see it.

[Sputz]

The city ordinance has a 1995 designation I am wondering if that is the year it was adopted and has not been removed or something.

Sputz

[Keith B]

The city ordinance has a 1995 designation I am wondering if that is the year it was adopted and has not been removed or something.

Sputz

In 1995, when CHL was introduced, cities could ban concealed carry in their buildings. That restriction was removed later (can't remember exactly the year) and thus the ordinance is now invalid and unenforceable due to preemption by the state statute.

[RPB]

I drafted E-mails/letters to city Attorneys before on here; here's a draft you can refine and anonymously (I always keep a copy) send to mayor/council, city attorney if you just want to have the unenforceable ordinance & signs removed for "housekeeping" purposes, and to give "notice" to the city, in case of false arrest ... so it's "foreseeable" that they should have removed signs/ordinance (you'd need to fix the links)

To: City Attorney
City Attorney Kevin D. Pagan
Deputy City Attorney Ignacio Perez
Assistant City Attorneys Aaron Leal
Iris Aguilar-Dominguez
Gary L. Henrichson
Municipal Court Prosecutors Evaristo Garcia, Jr.
Gregory E. Turley


City Attorney , Kevin D. Pagan
City of McAllen
1300 Houston Ave
McAllen, TX 78501


RE: City Ordinance issue



It appears that a city Ordinance needs to be amended, and
signs on the city owned buildings need to be changed or removed so no officer accidentally tries to arrest a Licensee
No officer can make a good faith arrest for something that is not illegal.
Doing so is a civil rights violation and a §1983 lawsuit could and could follow.
(See the following story http://www.mcall.com/news/local/carpent ... 503.column" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

See:
Local Government Code 229.001
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LGC 229.001

The ordinance to which I refer is:
Sec. 70-14. - Concealed handguns prohibited.
http://library.municode.com/HTML/10021/ ... 0-14COHAPR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 70-14. - Concealed handguns prohibited.
The carrying of any concealed handgun by any person unless such person is a licensed peace officer under the laws of the state and is carrying a concealed handgun under the course and scope of his employment, is prohibited on all city-owned premises. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a concealed handgun in violation of the provisions of this section. The city manager is hereby authorized to post notice of this prohibition at the entrance of all city premises. Any person carrying a concealed handgun in violation of this prohibition shall be considered to be entering the premises of the city in violation of Penal Code § 30.05, being the criminal trespass statute of the state.

(Ord. No. 1995-66, § I, 11-27-95)


Bringing it into compliance could be as simple as amending it with

Sec. 70-14 (a)
Sec. 70-14 shall not apply to a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code

-----------------------------------------------------


Local Government Code 229.001
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LGC 229.001

229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms,
ammunition, or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a
municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed
for personal or national defense, law enforcement, or another
lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the
limits of the municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a
business, or uses at a business under the municipality's fire code,
zoning ordinance, or land-use regulations as long as the code,
ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of
Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5) of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an
insurrection, riot, or natural disaster if the municipality finds
the regulations necessary to protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of
explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25
pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50
pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not
subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person
other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or
other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official
political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or
professional athletic event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not
apply if the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area
designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting
event and the firearm is of the type commonly used in the activity.

So, that ordinance, to be compliant with the Local Government Code, must be regulating the carrying of firearms by non-licensees ("other than"). Cities can do that, they just didn't incorporate an exception for Concealed Handgun Licensees. They should fix that, so the city does not get sued for false arrest one day.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.





==========

http://www.mcallen.net/departments/atto ... fault.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The function of the City Attorney’s Office is to serve the city with the highest quality of legal advice and representation.

The office:

* advisesthe Mayor, City Commission , McAllen Public Utility Board of Trustees, City Administration, City Advisory Boards and Employees in all areas of the law;

* handles legal issues relating to preparation/review of all documents in which the City may have an interest, ordinances, resolutions, contracts, code enforcement, zoning, legislation, real estate, labor and employment, water, franchises, tax suits, bankruptcies, civil service, law enforcement, open records, and financial matters;

---------------------
City Attorney Kevin D. Pagan
Deputy City Attorney Ignacio Perez
Assistant City Attorneys Aaron Leal
Iris Aguilar-Dominguez
Gary L. Henrichson
Municipal Court Prosecutors Evaristo Garcia, Jr.
Gregory E. Turley

------------

[evilmercer]

My city has something similar as well posted at all city building entrances. They make it look like a 30.06 posting from a distance with both English and Spanish.

[RPB]

Yes, old signs and old ordinances are everywhere.

Send a letter to City Attorney to put them on notice, then if you are ever arrested falsely, they knew or should have known better.... or they'll fix the signs/ordinances to be in compliance and maybe educate the local LEOs.

Might get more in damages if you had to sue, proof of foreseeability possibly.

Either way, you are better protected IMHlayman'sO

Postage is cheaper than legal fees due to a misunderstanding or lack of knowledge by City LEOs and city prosecutors.

Where I live, and surrounding areas, I try to put them on notice, anonymously, and I keep a copy, just in case.
The most common response is they amend the ordinance by excepting CHLs, and remove signs.

[Keith B]

My city has something similar as well posted at all city building entrances. They make it look like a 30.06 posting from a distance with both English and Spanish.

This is old verbiage, but basically says if you have a CHL you can carry there.

[Sputz]

I'm deciding if a phone call or a letter is in order here. I'm not one to put myself on anyone's radar but I think if they got the wrong person my tax dollars would end up having to pay for it, especially down here in the sue happy area everyone calls the Valley.

Sputz

[RPB]

I don't do phone calls, no proof they were put on notice.
I send anonymous letter to city attorney; so I'm on no ones radar. (no return address)
But, I keep a copy for proof, and to remind me I sent it.

Usually, the city just fixes their oversight after the City Attorney tells City Council ...
"It has to be done, to bring us into compliance with State Law".

How can they argue with that?

Also
How could a city not wish to potentially save thousands of dollars (if they got sued for false arrest)

I'm merely performing a service to my city (and nearby ones) pointing out an oversight which could be costly to them if nothing is done.

Still, I believe in doing good deeds secretly (anonymously) I remain the "Grey Man"

Google "grey man survival strategy" if you don't know what that means
(Essentially = Keep a low profile )

[Sputz]

And to think I thought I only had the zombies to worry about. Sigh their goes my whole sense of security.

Sputz

[Mike1951]

A couple of years ago, the TSRA was collecting reports of postings on government owned facilities.

I do not know what attempts they made to contact and rectify in these cases.

This should be an ongoing project for the TSRA until no such examples exist.

I can only wonder why they don't appear to be involved.

[JustSomeOldGuy]

The 70-14 sign is STILL on the wall at the Palm View Community Center.
The 70-14 ordinance is still in it's 1995 form, unamended, on the city's website
(www.mcallen.net, select 'Government' dropdown, 'Information/City Ordinances', which sends you to https://www.municode.com/library/tx/mca ... ordinances) which gives an update status of

McAllen, Texas - Code of Ordinances
Supplement 67
Online content updated on October 26, 2015
CODE OF ORDINANCES
City of
McALLEN, TEXAS

Codified through
Ordinance No. 2015-79, enacted June 8, 2015.
(Supp. No. 67)