BAD EXPERIENCE: Dallas Museum of Art

[KBCraig]

I'm also sure that the DMA Board of Trustees feels differently, even if Dallas does own the buildings. But, bottom line, any 30.06 postings they make cannot be enforced legally.

Kevin

Agreed, but here is the quandary. The law does not say that governments cannot prohibit CHL's from entering. It says that if they post 30.06 you are not obligated to obey it.

If they wand you or pat you down and discover the weapon, they can deny you entrance based on verbal notice under 30.05. Having a CHL is only a defense to prosecution under 30.05, meaning you can be arrested for trespass if you refuse to leave after being told to leave.

Exactly. That's why I was careful to only say that their 30.06 postings can't be enforced. Many people are under the mistaken impression that it's somehow illegal for them to post 30.06; thanks for elaborating on that point.

Someone with a lot of time and money and willingness to be a test case, could argue that since only the Legislature can regulate the wearing of arms, no political subdivision has any authority to deny concealed carry. They might even win the case. But only after spending a lot of time and money being the test case.

Follow up posted in the "Goals for 2007" topic.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... hp?p=50263

Kevin

[wrt45]

TXI, I agree with everything you said, except these five words:

Its their place, their rules.

Its not their place....its our place. Cities, counties, the state....aren't really owners. The citizens are the owners, and when governmental authorities bar citizens from public places for what is a lawful act, those authorities have exceeded their appropriate power.

We shouldn't make a scene, or get mad at the person who is just doing their job at the gate or door, but neither should we fall into the mind-set that "its their place, their rules" as that is demeaning to all citizens in all circumstances. When its public property, its "our place" and the legislative process sets the rules for all.

[StexFJR]

TXI wrote

And the entire "being a pain". waiting That damages the reputation of all CHL holders when you argue and make statements like "I might be violating the law if I tell you". Not only is it absurd, it sounds lunitical.

So what do you say if asked in a situation like that? Not being smart, just want to know the right thing to say and do. Thanks

[txinvestigator]

TXI, I agree with everything you said, except these five words:

Its their place, their rules.

Its not their place....its our place. Cities, counties, the state....aren't really owners. The citizens are the owners, and when governmental authorities bar citizens from public places for what is a lawful act, those authorities have exceeded their appropriate power.

We shouldn't make a scene, or get mad at the person who is just doing their job at the gate or door, but neither should we fall into the mind-set that "its their place, their rules" as that is demeaning to all citizens in all circumstances. When its public property, its "our place" and the legislative process sets the rules for all.

Fair enough. However, we elect people who hire people to make the rules. There is a process to change things we don't like. And we often can't change things we don't like, especially if we are in the minority.

But I do see your point.

[txinvestigator]

TXI wrote

And the entire "being a pain". waiting That damages the reputation of all CHL holders when you argue and make statements like "I might be violating the law if I tell you". Not only is it absurd, it sounds lunitical.

So what do you say if asked in a situation like that? Not being smart, just want to know the right thing to say and do. Thanks

I have found that when you make statements that are untrue to bolster your argument or to make a point, you often discredit yourself, especially to people who know the facts or can find the facts out.

I would have simply told the person I was legally carrying. When denied admission I would have either a) secured the handgun in my vehicle and returned or b) left the Museum.

Life is fraught with danger. I don't go to places where I think I might need a handgun, if avoidable. I carry a handgun everywhere I legally can. I also am not so paranoid that I would refuse to attend an event where I could not legally carry. Particularly an event where everyone is searched and/or patted down.

American Airlines Center in Dallas is owned by the city of Dallas. Regardless, at Promise Keepers they were using metal detectors and refused entry to persons carrying handguns. I went anyway, unarmed.

[Piney]

Greetings--

Not meaning to crash this thread, but (as always...) this topic is a bit confusing.

I'm curious-- do other states have laws in place that better define (read limit here) the ability of a publicly-owned property to prevent lawful handgun carry ? Or-- is this just "one of those things" that's cloudy all over ?

[txinvestigator]

Hey Piney..........I lived in Longview as a child: attended Pine Tree Elementary. It is beautiful country.

I don't know about other states. In Texas, if a govt entity posts a 30.06 sign, the sign holds no force. If they search you and tell you that you cannot carry with the gun, then you cannot.

As of now, Texas does not make it illegal for the government to exclude carrying CHLers.

[stevie_d_64]

Hey, Piney and "Txi"...

Don't forget about the entities and facilities defined in the Texas "Health & Safety Code"...

Just another fly in the ointment...

Charles brought that up in the "school definition" thread last week...Seems like that document dovetails into this discussion as well...

[txinvestigator]

Hey, Piney and "Txi"...

Don't forget about the entities and facilities defined in the Texas "Health & Safety Code"...

Just another fly in the ointment...

Charles brought that up in the "school definition" thread last week...Seems like that document dovetails into this discussion as well...

You lost me Stevie.........................

[cyphur]

Life is fraught with danger. I don't go to places where I think I might need a handgun, if avoidable. I carry a handgun everywhere I legally can. I also am not so paranoid that I would refuse to attend an event where I could not legally carry. Particularly an event where everyone is searched and/or patted down.

American Airlines Center in Dallas is owned by the city of Dallas. Regardless, at Promise Keepers they were using metal detectors and refused entry to persons carrying handguns. I went anyway, unarmed.

Great post, can't agree more. Just because I can't carry somewhere, doesn't mean I won't go. A firearm is just a tool, and this particular principle of the ordeal is not enough for me to miss out.

Case and point - the gun show yesterday. I should be able to carry there, for more reasons than I care to list. However, the gun stayed in the truck as I enjoyed an afternoon of good company and browsing.

[Braden]

American Airlines Center in Dallas is owned by the city of Dallas. Regardless, at Promise Keepers they were using metal detectors and refused entry to persons carrying handguns. I went anyway, unarmed.

Just FYI, the AAC is not owned by the city of Dallas. It is owned by Hillwood Development Corporation, whose chairman, of course, is none other than Mr. Ross Perot. I only know this because the company I work for happens to be the company that built the facility.

Not that it matters for the sake of this discussion, but I just wanted to pass that info along.

[txinvestigator]

American Airlines Center in Dallas is owned by the city of Dallas. Regardless, at Promise Keepers they were using metal detectors and refused entry to persons carrying handguns. I went anyway, unarmed.

Just FYI, the AAC is not owned by the city of Dallas. It was bought and paid for by Hillwood Development Corporation. The company I work for built the facility. So, unless the city bought it from Hillwood after we finished it then it is not a government owned facility.

From the AAC FAQ;

Who operates the facility?

American Airlines Center is managed and operated by the Center Operating Company, which has a lease with the City of Dallas for 30 years, starting in 2001.

If COC is leasing it from the City of Dallas, I imagine that Dallas must own it.


Edit; after reviewing the Deeds online, Hillwood did pay for and build the structure, but after entering into a lease with the City of Dallas.

[stevie_d_64]

Hey, Piney and "Txi"...

Don't forget about the entities and facilities defined in the Texas "Health & Safety Code"...

Just another fly in the ointment...

Charles brought that up in the "school definition" thread last week...Seems like that document dovetails into this discussion as well...

You lost me Stevie.........................

This one...

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... ght=#49680

Look down at Charles post about 3/4 the way down the page...

Thats what I thought might be another resource ya'll might look at...

[Braden]

Edit; after reviewing the Deeds online, Hillwood did pay for and build the structure, but after entering into a lease with the City of Dallas.

I don't care enough to try and prove you right or wrong, so I'll just concede that you're probably right. I do know that it was Hillwood who wrote our checks for building the thing, but I don't know what arrangements they may have had with the city.

Either way we can't carry as long as they've got those silly metal detectors at the doors.

[stevie_d_64]

Edit; after reviewing the Deeds online, Hillwood did pay for and build the structure, but after entering into a lease with the City of Dallas.

I don't care enough to try and prove you right or wrong, so I'll just concede that you're probably right. I do know that it was Hillwood who wrote our checks for building the thing, but I don't know what arrangements they may have had with the city.

Either way we can't carry as long as they've got those silly metal detectors at the doors.

I always thought it was extremely silly to have someone walk through a metal detector, after they are forced to identify themselves to the screeners, ID and CHL handed over for review, then "specially badged" identifying themselves as "ARMED" to everyone who gives a rats...

Then I'm off to conduct my business in that city facility...

"M40STEYR" and myself, have direct experience with that facility in Houston at there 611 Walker Public Works facility...

I actually thought it was no big deal after the first time...I thought their methods were crude and condesending, and un-necessary...But after they got you pegged, you're pretty much good to go...I even think "Steyr" and I have swapped badges there over the last couple of years...I believe we are the only ones who carry in and out of that building...

I just generally believe that this issue about where and where you should not go armed is always going to be a stickler of an issue in this state...And how they "handle you" is going to be a big rub as well...

Hopefully it'll get better...