Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Holster)

Colleges are places to learn, not die at the hands of attention-starved mass-murderers.

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton


hirundo82
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:44 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#76

Post by hirundo82 »

gigag04 wrote:
srothstein wrote:I am not sure that an empty holster gives either the suspicion of a crime or the reason to believe there is a danger. Of course, this is a point that is very individual and a court may find that the empty holster is a reasonable suspicion.
I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. I think an officer would have an easy time articulating reason to believe a weapon was present. "...Sir, in my training and experience I recognize that a holster worn on the person is often accompanied by a handgun. I observed that a handgun was not present in the holster, and believed that the defendant may have been concealing it elsewhere on his person. I asked the defendant whether he possessed a handgun, and he refused to answer. I asked the defendant for consent to search his person. The defendant refused. Based on my belief that a holster (paraphernalia for a weapon if you will...) is often accompanied by a handgun, I determined that the reasonable suspicion for a Terry frisk was met. The defendant prevented us from conducting a search, and further refused to leave the premises when commanded to do so by a peace officer....ETC
Arrest many people with an empty holster and a gun concealed elsewhere on there person, do you?

Would you consider a gun t-shirt or 5.11 pants reasonable suspicion for a search too?
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." Barack Obama, 12/20/2007
User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 13575
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#77

Post by C-dub »

Sorry I've been away from the discussion for a bit. My computer did not want to boot properly for a couple of days.

I understand officer safety and all that, but the officers in question here are the one's that initiated the entire event. I think we can agree that news articles often get many facts wrong and many times leave facts completely out of a story. I have not gone back and re-read the story, but from memory the officers either told him he could leave or asked him to leave. This is very different from being commanded to leave. It doesn't say he was doing anything other than being there with an empty holster, so that's all we have to go on. That doesn't seem like enough to me. It still sounds like they got upset that he would defy their omnipotence.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
User avatar

PappaGun
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 743
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:34 pm
Location: After 4:30 you can usually find me at a Brew Pub

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#78

Post by PappaGun »

Barbi Q wrote:Long hair = OK to search for drugs

Short hair = OK to search for guns

The 4th Amendment is dead.
Well summarized BQ.

The "In my training and experience" statement could encompass a lot.

Personally, I believe any thing can be fit in that box.

And I do not like it.
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster

"All we ask for is registration, just like we do for cars."
- Charles Schumer
User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 10371
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#79

Post by jmra »

I have no problem with strong opinions but this "contest" seems to be getting some shoes wet.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
User avatar

gigag04
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 10
Posts: 5474
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:47 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#80

Post by gigag04 »

jmra wrote:I have no problem with strong opinions but this "contest" seems to be getting some shoes wet.
Bwahahaha. Another great expression.
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison

speedsix
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 5608
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:39 am

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#81

Post by speedsix »

...gigag04's right on with his logic...I think any straight judge'd buy it...I've searched many a car because an empty holster or some loose bullets were there...if you step in it in the yard, prolly a dog nearby...
User avatar

Keith B
Moderator
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 18503
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#82

Post by Keith B »

I think the whole point you guys are missing is IT WAS AN EMPTY HOLSTER PROTEST. I would tend to agree that in general an empty holster would give you reasonable suspicion to search. However, when you have multiple people who are there to protest with empty holsters, I think you have a 99.99% chance they are NOT gonna try and carry a weapon somewhere else on them and risk jeopardizing their education and ruin the protest for the others.
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member

Psalm 82:3-4

speedsix
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 5608
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:39 am

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#83

Post by speedsix »

...having read the OP, I'm not missing anything...but not being there, I can't speak as to why he was singled out...could be that his actions made them want to be sure he was unarmed...still a reasonable search in my opinion...
...he wasn't arrested for refusing the search...but for refusing to leave...probably a valid arrest...and that's not hinging on the holster...I'd love to read that police report...a lot we're not getting here...SOMETHING made them "pick on" him...
User avatar

WildBill
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 21
Posts: 17350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:53 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#84

Post by WildBill »

Keith B wrote:I think the whole point you guys are missing is IT WAS AN EMPTY HOLSTER PROTEST.
:iagree: It would be like stopping someone on Halloween because they are wearing a cape.
NRA Endowment Member
User avatar

flintknapper
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:40 pm
Location: Deep East Texas

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#85

Post by flintknapper »

speedsix wrote:...gigag04's right on with his logic...I think any straight judge'd buy it...I've searched many a car because an empty holster or some loose bullets were there...if you step in it in the yard, prolly a dog nearby...
"One size fits all" law enforcement?

Shameful IMO.
Spartans ask not how many, but where!
User avatar

puma guy
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 7876
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:23 pm
Location: Near San Jacinto

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#86

Post by puma guy »

speedsix wrote:...having read the OP, I'm not missing anything...but not being there, I can't speak as to why he was singled out...could be that his actions made them want to be sure he was unarmed...still a reasonable search in my opinion...
...he wasn't arrested for refusing the search...but for refusing to leave...probably a valid arrest...and that's not hinging on the holster...I'd love to read that police report...a lot we're not getting here...SOMETHING made them "pick on" him...

"SOMETHING made them "pick on" him"
You inadvertently nullified your argument for a valid arrest if he was the only protester ordered to leave. He was indeed picked out for doing something completely legal. I don't buy all the arguments for any search that is not justified. We've been chipping away at our liberties to the point even LEO's feel justifed in defying the 4th amendment. We have surrendered to new speak. A frisk is not a search. How absurd. That's like saying a grope is not a sexual assualt. I am not blaming them, we've been sliding down this slope a long time. At every level government has taken our liberty in the name of some cause for the good of all. Airport security measures come to mind as one of the most extreme, yet we comply and it will become the norm and when more extreme measures are demanded we'll complain and then after a while "normal" is at a new level. JMHO
KAHR PM40/Hoffner IWB and S&W Mod 60/ Galco IWB
NRA Endowment Member, TSRA Life Member,100 Club Life Member,TFC Member
My Faith, My Gun and My Constitution: I cling to all three!
User avatar

WildBill
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 21
Posts: 17350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:53 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#87

Post by WildBill »

puma guy wrote:We've been chipping away at our liberties to the point even LEO's feel justifed in defying the 4th amendment. We have surrendered to new speak. A frisk is not a search.
Unfortunately, this is not "new speak". The Terry stop has been around since 1968. I think that the biggest issue is with the courts, and not just at the appellate level. IMO, the court [judge] will give the much more latitude to the prosecutors and LEOs. Most people would probably agree than an LEO is more likely to give more honest testimony than a suspect or criminal and that the prosecution would only present truthful evidence. For the most part this probably happens. Unfortunately, I think that leads to the conclusion that all evidence and testimony presented by the prosecution is "the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth." We all know that this isn't the case, but seldom will a judge question such testimony or evidence. Appellant courts rarely will question or overturn cases based on matters of "fact". These practices only seem to bother people when the defendant is innocent.
Last edited by WildBill on Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NRA Endowment Member
User avatar

puma guy
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 7876
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:23 pm
Location: Near San Jacinto

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#88

Post by puma guy »

WildBill wrote:
puma guy wrote:We've been chipping away at our liberties to the point even LEO's feel justifed in defying the 4th amendment. We have surrendered to new speak. A frisk is not a search.
Unfortunately, this is not "new speak". The Terry stop has been around since 1968. I think that the biggest issue is with the courts, and not just at the appellate level. IMO, the court [judge] will give the much more latitude to the prosecutors and LEOs. Most people would probably agree than an LEO is more likely to give more honest testimony than a suspect or criminal. Unfortunately, I think that leads to the conclusion that all testimony presented by the prosecution is "the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth." We all know that this isn't the case, but seldom will a judge question such evidence.
WB
Thanks for the info re: Terry stops. I wasn't aware of them or when they appeared. I think we climbed to ladder to the slippery slide even before 1968. I was going to stay out of this discussion, but I just see so many instances where we've allowed the erosion of our liberties. It won't stop until either we've lost them or someone takes issue and challenges the powers that be. Bill Clemmons took away the soverign rights of Texans to sue the government and Texas is worse off for it. Instead of government protecting property it is now free to damage, destroy and take it outright with no recourse. The heros that fought and died for Texas' Independence would be taking up arms. Sorry I guess I've strayed from the OP. I do hope the gentleman successfully challenges his arrest.
KAHR PM40/Hoffner IWB and S&W Mod 60/ Galco IWB
NRA Endowment Member, TSRA Life Member,100 Club Life Member,TFC Member
My Faith, My Gun and My Constitution: I cling to all three!
User avatar

WildBill
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 21
Posts: 17350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:53 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#89

Post by WildBill »

puma guy wrote:I do hope the gentleman successfully challenges his arrest.
I hope that as well.
NRA Endowment Member
User avatar

gigag04
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 10
Posts: 5474
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:47 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Student arrested for refusing to be searched (Empty Hols

#90

Post by gigag04 »

Wow...so dramatic. Not that many will believe me, but there are quite a few checks and balances on LEOs.
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison
Locked

Return to “Concealed Carry on College Campuses”