Interesting Church Carry Discussion

[UpTheIrons]

Yesterday I was at the installation of a brother pastor in the area. Among the other clergy attending were two pastors from larger churches in the area, one being a former pastor from a very large church in San Antonio in our denomination. The other pastor was talking about one visitor he had yesterday morning who stuck out - "either a very dark-skinned Hispanic or Middle Eastern" he said.

The guy came in just as the service started, sat in the back, and only got up and left his seat during the offering. As soon as the service was over, the guy left. He mentioned how this was a tad unsettling "with the day and age we are in" and wondered aloud about possible security measures.

The pastor who was once at the large SA church mentioned how they always had plain-clothes security, and added uniformed police for large events, and had drilled for possible scenarios. The first fellow mentioned how they had a police officer come talk to the staff once, and said that if something happened, they should "just call 911".

Obviously, the visitor yesterday unsettled him somewhat, because he then wondered aloud about posting 30.06, to which I replied "who do you think is really going to pay attention to that sign?" He acknowledged the folly of it at least.

I told him that if we had an incident, it isn't at all out of the realm of possibility that we'd have a minimum 20-30 minute response time, based on where our church is in the country. I added that we have several CHL holders in the congregation, and I'm still not sure who all of them are. The ones that I know of always sit in the back.

I think the discussion gave him some pause, and I hope to follow up with him on it in the future - he may be at a tipping point, and I'd hate to see him recommend something rash based on one experience.

Any thoughts?

[A-R]

Explain to him that a PC 30.06 notice ONLY prohibits law-abiding citizens who are LICENSED to carry a gun from entering a premises with their gun. It does NOTHING to prohibit an UNLICENSED person from entering the premises with a gun (that's already against the law unless said person is LEO, uniformed security, or other protected class).

Then ask him if he thinks someone willing to do harm to a church congregation would be likely to go through a 10-hour class, submit to an FBI background check, pay upwards of $300 in total fees, to obtain a license to carry a gun .... or is it more likely that such a person would just illegally carry a gun.

If the person(s) who worry him are illegally carrying a gun, not only will they IGNORE a PC 30.06 sign, it has no legal significance to them. They don't get in "more trouble" for ignorning it than they're already in for ignoring PC 46.02 in the first place.

A PC 30.06 sign ONLY penalizes otherwise law-abiding licensed citizens. It literally does NOTHING to prevent crime of any kind.

[phrogg]

A PC 30.06 sign ONLY penalizes otherwise law-abiding licensed citizens. It literally does NOTHING to prevent crime of any kind.

If anything it will provide incentive to have INCREASED crime due to lack of deterrents. It specifically spells out that we have no deterrent.

[RPB]

Senator Hinojosa's office today told me Banks and churches are off limits to CHLs sign or no sign
I'm almost surprised that staff member didn't include the State Capitol as an off limits location.

[srothstein]

If it helps, you could ask him to talk with some professionals in the field. As a retired officer, I would be happy to discuss the possible problems and solutions with him. Depending on what part of the county you are in, I am familiar with the nearest police departments and most of the attitudes of people in the area.

Point out a real threat analysis is the most important part of the security plan.

[Jasonw560]

Senator Hinojosa's office today told me Banks and churches are off limits to CHLs sign or no sign
I'm almost surprised that staff member didn't include the State Capitol as an off limits location.

This does not surprise me in the least.

[UpTheIrons]

If it helps, you could ask him to talk with some professionals in the field. As a retired officer, I would be happy to discuss the possible problems and solutions with him. Depending on what part of the county you are in, I am familiar with the nearest police departments and most of the attitudes of people in the area.

Point out a real threat analysis is the most important part of the security plan.

He's in New Braunfels, so you aren't far away at all. I'll see if I can get him to agree to a meet. Sounds like he's really unsure of what to do right now, and I'd hate for him to do anything rash.

[B3XD]

May I suggest that if you are relying on your CHLers in church, that y'all need to get a plan of action together. Confusion in response to an attack is likely to produce more problems. If the police/sheriff in the area is sympathetic, you might ask him to at the minimum address them. If not, you might see if there is someone else in the area who does tactical gun training.

Having seen what kind of mess the official response to a shooter is, I can imagine the mess an unofficial one could cause.The problem with multiple uncoordinated unidentified individuals responding to an attack is that how do you tell who the real perp is in the middle of a mess. Why it is even advised that you have training and a plan of action when just two of you are responding to an incident in your own home. Your fellow pastor may be thinking of that.

I have no idea how you go about this without raising the issues of identification or paramilitary action, etc. I wish you well.

[Hoi Polloi]

The guy came in just as the service started, sat in the back, and only got up and left his seat during the offering. As soon as the service was over, the guy left. He mentioned how this was a tad unsettling "with the day and age we are in" and wondered aloud about possible security measures.

This is how I understand the guy's behavior: visitor comes in as the service is starting, sits in the back, gets up (leaving the sanctuary?) during the collection, returns to his seat, then leaves as the service is over.

That describes the behavior of a great percentage of church visitors in my experience. It's obvious that the visitor's behavior disturbed the pastor and was out of the ordinary for his experience, but I'm not understanding what the unusual behavior was that unsettled him. Did he think the guy might be robbing the church during the offering while everyone else was in the sanctuary? (I was once followed by ushers when I left the sanctuary of a church I was visiting mid-service to use the restroom in the social hall.) Was it a single, dark-skinned stranger who didn't interact with them, leaving the pastor to worry about all the news reports he's seen? Or is it something else he's worried about?

[UpTheIrons]

The guy came in just as the service started, sat in the back, and only got up and left his seat during the offering. As soon as the service was over, the guy left. He mentioned how this was a tad unsettling "with the day and age we are in" and wondered aloud about possible security measures.

This is how I understand the guy's behavior: visitor comes in as the service is starting, sits in the back, gets up (leaving the sanctuary?) during the collection, returns to his seat, then leaves as the service is over.

That describes the behavior of a great percentage of church visitors in my experience. It's obvious that the visitor's behavior disturbed the pastor and was out of the ordinary for his experience, but I'm not understanding what the unusual behavior was that unsettled him. Did he think the guy might be robbing the church during the offering while everyone else was in the sanctuary? (I was once followed by ushers when I left the sanctuary of a church I was visiting mid-service to use the restroom in the social hall.) Was it a single, dark-skinned stranger who didn't interact with them, leaving the pastor to worry about all the news reports he's seen? Or is it something else he's worried about?

We didn't really have time to discuss the whole episode at length. I think he's just concerned that it might have been someone 'casing' the place for future malfeasance. He had no thought at all of the guy robbing the church during the offering - from his seat he could see the guy the whole time.

I think it was an instance that was so far out of the realm of "normal" for a Sunday morning that it really struck him as odd. We've had the odd visitor pop in and be gone as soon as the service was over, too, but the combo of dark/Middle Eastern appearance, alone, and in-and-gone before anyone could greet him was what tickled his Spidey sense.

I didn't mention earlier (and probably should have) that this isn't a huge church. Bigger than many, for sure, but not big enough for anyone to be a "regular anonymous attendee". That smallish size coupled with the observations above is what flipped his switch.