Police stop behavior

[Excaliber]

As a police officer, here's what I *recommend,* which is also similar to what I do on the occcasions I've been stopped;

Interior lights ON
Window DOWN
Hands on WHEEL

wait for LEO to make contact, listen to their spiel;

say something along the lines of...Before I reach for anything, I'd like you to know I am a CHL holder and I am armed

Follow instructions from there.

Some I've talked to feel this is "bending over for the man" or a needless statement which somehow violates a right to privacy or even the Constitution .

I've heard a lot of paranoid "i don't *have* to say anything" rants. If you feel that way, do what you want. This is what I prefer, and this is what I do for other LEOs. YMMV. :txflag:

while I dont really have a problem with someones choice to make it known (right before you make it known by handing them the chl) it seems kind of redundant, why do I need to tell you im about to hand you a piece of plastic that tells you I am a hand gun holder

Granted if the location of my gun was such that the movement to remove my wallet and access my licesnes would expose my weapon, thats a different story, you could be in a world of hurt fairly quickly. and thats probably the only situation I would make a point to inform him of my chl, before I in form him that I am a CHL holder (by handing him my CHL)

and again, this is not because I feel like im "bending over for the man" its because in our interaction, your going to say "licenses and insurance" and im going to say "here you go sir" no point in adding steps, if you ask "are you a chl holder" I will say yes, want to know where the gun is located what it is, not a problem. but im going to do what im ASKED and not more unless I find it immediately necassary for my safety or the safety of the officer

There are several advantages to following the sequence FiveOh suggests:

1. It tells the officer he's almost certainly looking at a good guy (bad guys don't keep hands on the wheel and tell officers they're armed)
2. It expresses respect for the officer and his safety. Officers tend to treat folks who do this differently than folks who keep them guessing. (I start out by saying, "Out of respect for your safety....." and I've had them thank me for my courtesy).
3. It removes potential unpleasant surprises on both sides if in the process of reaching for your license a certain bulge catches the officer's eye.
4. It will most likely keep you from munching on gravel if the situation described in #3 occurs.
5. There's about an even chance that if the officer is undecided about whether to issue a citation when he walks up, the decision may tilt in your favor.
6. It works well every time.

Drawbacks:

1. It doesn't have nearly the panache that taking the "I'm not telling him anything I don't have to" attitude does.
2. It isn't likely to give you an adrenaline rush
3. You'll almost certainly miss out on being the star of a patrol car video segment on the evening news.

[WildBill]

Drawbacks:

1. It doesn't have nearly the panache that taking the "I'm not telling him anything I don't have to" attitude does.
2. It isn't likely to give you an adrenaline rush
3. You'll almost certainly miss out on being the star of a patrol car video segment on the evening news.

I think, I can live with that.

[zero4o3]

There are several advantages to following the sequence FiveOh suggests:

1. It tells the officer he's almost certainly looking at a good guy (bad guys don't keep hands on the wheel and tell officers they're armed)
2. It expresses respect for the officer and his safety. Officers tend to treat folks who do this differently than folks who keep them guessing. (I start out by saying, "Out of respect for your safety....." and I've had them thank me for my courtesy).
3. It removes potential unpleasant surprises on both sides if in the process of reaching for your license a certain bulge catches the officer's eye.
4. It will most likely keep you from munching on gravel if the situation described in #3 occurs.
5. There's about an even chance that if the officer is undecided about whether to issue a citation when he walks up, the decision may tilt in your favor.
6. It works well every time.


Drawbacks:;

1. It doesn't have nearly the panache that taking the "I'm not telling him anything I don't have to" attitude does.
2. It isn't likely to give you an adrenaline rush
3. You'll almost certainly miss out on being the star of a patrol car video segment on the evening news.

given your response, I feel like the point I was trying to make must have eluded you.

I never stated that I didnt do the same things he does with the exception of going out of my way to anounce that I have a gun right before I hand my CHL to the officer, infact in my privous post, I stated pretty much exactly the same steps for what I normally do in a traffic stop
I agree 100% on this part, I tried to relay the fact that if the gun was in any position that it might be seen you would be stupid to not inform the officer before hand, when I pocket carry, or often times I will put the gun in my center console while driving, there is no posibilty of the gun being seen
I agree with you on this point also, mostly because of the hand full of times I have actually been stopped the majorty have been warnings, the times I didnt get warnings where for things I wouldnt expect anyone to get a warning for.

Again sorry if my post didnt come out as I ment it, I thought I was clearly pointing out that I find it redundant to inform some one your about to inform them of something, and that I am not comfortable verbaly trying to inform some one that I have a weapon on the side of a loud street when I can inform them safely by first handing them my CHL and letting them continue to ask the questions they see fit. Basicly trying to avoid useing the words "I have a gun" when speaking with a police officer as to not be taken wrong

I have found that what makes sense logicaly to me does not always to other people, so this wouldnt be the first time my point didnt come accross clearly

[FiveOh]

Allow me to add some things.

Zero, I'm not calling you out, but some of you're statements seem to indicate I didn't clearly convey my point of view either:

"why do I need to tell you im about to hand you a piece of plastic that tells you I am a hand gun holder "

It's not at all about the piece of plastic, its about the weapon you're probably carrying with the piece of plastic. The point is to tell me you're armed, and why, but in the order NOT to make LEO's uptight. "I have a gun because I have a CHL, just so you know..." It leaves a lot to be desired. "I have a CHL, and I am armed." Okay, cool. Like Excalibur said, it's a courtesy. I see it as you having that degree of consideration for me as a LEO. Telling me up front can streamline the process. Heck, even not carrying, "I have a CHL but I don't have my weapon." Whether or not someone tells me, I will find out if a person has a CHL if I run their DL. It just prompts more questions..."How come you didn't tell me you have a CHL?" Officer, I don't have my weapon with me. Okey doke.

"and not more unless I find it immediately necassary for my safety or the safety of the officer"

You make a good point, especially with "if the location of my gun was such that the movement to remove my wallet and access my licesnes would expose my weapon"

You're thinking, which puts you far ahead of a lot of folks I deal with. Along that line, ensure that the weapon is somewhere NO ONE would see it from any view standing outside the vehicle (such as the center console, like you mentioned). There can be several officers at a traffic stop for any number of reasons. Whether you are approached at the driver's side or passenger side, where the contact officer chooses to stand in relation to the vehicle, and where cover officers may stand during the encounter, the weapon shouldn't be visible by anyone, anywhere.

Excalibur made excellent points. Unfortunately, I have had a few occasions to deal with CHL holders and POLICE OFFICERS who did not inform uniformed, on duty personnel of either A) CHL/LEO status, and B) having a weapon or not. Both instances were tense for the parties involved when guns and or holsters were seen on their person or within immediate reach. At the end of the day everyone went home, but as a CHL or LEO, who wants to go through that until things are verified (employment/CHL). Not me, and I hate doing it to the good guys.

Ultimately, my point is this I suppose; I will find out one way or the other that a person has a CHL. I want to know a person is ARMED as EARLY AS POSSIBLE in the encounter. I see it less a matter of redundancy, rather than a courtesy and a matter of expediency. PERSONALLY, I am of the school of thought that CHL's are the good guys. My job is to worry about the bad guys. I don't want to waste yours or my time.

If I know up front that I'm likely dealing with a good guy, I can move on to go find a bad guy.

This is just my personal perspective and opinion as applied to my job, based on my experiences. Again, YMMV.


On a side note, I'm glad to see a healthy and mature discussion of this topic that hasn't degraded to an anti-police/I dont have to do/say x y z rant. I for one appreciate all of you who chose to take up arms in defense of yourselves and others, and am proud to live in a state that facilitates armed citizens. Carry on!

[zero4o3]

my thought process in all of this is that I just like to talk as little as possible, I will answer any question im asked, but I would rather hand my CHL to the officer have him ask if i'm carrying and say "yes sir" less chance of me being mistaken.

On a side note, I'm glad to see a healthy and mature discussion of this topic that hasn't degraded to an anti-police/I dont have to do/say x y z rant. I for one appreciate all of you who chose to take up arms in defense of yourselves and others, and am proud to live in a state that facilitates armed citizens. Carry on!

and Thank you for your insight

[speedsix]

I am sure this has been covered, but I could not find it in search. When pulled over for a traffic stop. Do you (1) Do nothing and wait for police to request your DL and give your CHL at that time (2) Have them ready and waiting when the LEO comes to your window. Or some other option? I am running into a differing of opinion. I went to the TXDPS website, and it said consult your local law enforcement for their requirements in your area.

...I don't know why TXDPS would say consult your local law enforcement...it's a STATE law that we notify them each time they ask for ID...as some have said, it's simplest to hand over ID/Dr.Lic and CHL when requested...and let him take it from there...between the blue lights coming on and him walking up, there's plenty of time to slip our wallets out and get our hands away from our belts...same if we're approaching a checkpoint...

...once the ID/CHL are in his hands...he KNOWS you're legal...reduces his concern level A LOT more than ..."Officer, I'm licensed and I do have a gun on me" or such...the plastic has a calming effect and he is certain-sure that you're OK to carry, not maybe someone who's trying to surrender...and he can ask other questions or not as he sees fit...

[Excaliber]

There are several advantages to following the sequence FiveOh suggests:

1. It tells the officer he's almost certainly looking at a good guy (bad guys don't keep hands on the wheel and tell officers they're armed)
2. It expresses respect for the officer and his safety. Officers tend to treat folks who do this differently than folks who keep them guessing. (I start out by saying, "Out of respect for your safety....." and I've had them thank me for my courtesy).
3. It removes potential unpleasant surprises on both sides if in the process of reaching for your license a certain bulge catches the officer's eye.
4. It will most likely keep you from munching on gravel if the situation described in #3 occurs.
5. There's about an even chance that if the officer is undecided about whether to issue a citation when he walks up, the decision may tilt in your favor.
6. It works well every time.


Drawbacks:;

1. It doesn't have nearly the panache that taking the "I'm not telling him anything I don't have to" attitude does.
2. It isn't likely to give you an adrenaline rush
3. You'll almost certainly miss out on being the star of a patrol car video segment on the evening news.

given your response, I feel like the point I was trying to make must have eluded you.

I never stated that I didnt do the same things he does with the exception of going out of my way to anounce that I have a gun right before I hand my CHL to the officer, infact in my privous post, I stated pretty much exactly the same steps for what I normally do in a traffic stop
I agree 100% on this part, I tried to relay the fact that if the gun was in any position that it might be seen you would be stupid to not inform the officer before hand, when I pocket carry, or often times I will put the gun in my center console while driving, there is no posibilty of the gun being seen
I agree with you on this point also, mostly because of the hand full of times I have actually been stopped the majorty have been warnings, the times I didnt get warnings where for things I wouldnt expect anyone to get a warning for.

Again sorry if my post didnt come out as I ment it, I thought I was clearly pointing out that I find it redundant to inform some one your about to inform them of something, and that I am not comfortable verbaly trying to inform some one that I have a weapon on the side of a loud street when I can inform them safely by first handing them my CHL and letting them continue to ask the questions they see fit. Basicly trying to avoid useing the words "I have a gun" when speaking with a police officer as to not be taken wrong

I have found that what makes sense logicaly to me does not always to other people, so this wouldnt be the first time my point didnt come accross clearly

Sorry I did not correctly understand your intent.

Do whatever works for you in the circumstances you find yourself in.

[speedsix]

...you din't say nuttin' ???

I was on the phone while typing and messed up. It's fixed now.

[Excaliber]

...you din't say nuttin' ???

I was on the phone while typing and messed up. It's fixed now.

[speedsix]

...yeah it is...the compooter quoted me on another thread as sayin' somethin' somebody else said...thought we might be havin' a gremlin attack...hey...it did it on this one, too...what in Sam Hill's goin' on???????????? I can get in enough trouble by myself with out gettin' misquoted!!!

[Excaliber]

...yeah it is...the compooter quoted me on another thread as sayin' somethin' somebody else said...thought we might be havin' a gremlin attack...hey...it did it on this one, too...what in Sam Hill's goin' on???????????? I can get in enough trouble by myself with out gettin' misquoted!!!

The good thing is when you actually do mess up, you can point to the gremlin attacks for "plausible deniability."

[srothstein]

I don't know why TXDPS would say consult your local law enforcement...it's a STATE law that we notify them each time they ask for ID...as some have said, it's simplest to hand over ID/Dr.Lic and CHL when requested...and let him take it from there.

Just a fine point that might clarify this a little. There is no state law requiring you to verbally inform the officer of anything. The law requires you to produce both the CHL and the ID/TXDL when asked, and then only if you are actually armed.

I agree that telling him is good advice, just as I agree that producing both even when you are not armed is also good advice, even though not legally required.

One of my (many) complaints about the way our laws are written is that you are required to produce the CHL, and the officer has the legal authority to disarm you, but you are not required to answer his question of whether or not you are carrying. Remembering that this is an academic discussion of what the law requires and not advice for behavior on the street, have you ever wondered what happens to a person who tries to obey the law but is not going to be cooperative other than that? He is stopped for something and asked for his DL. He gives up both his DL and his CHL. The officer asks if he is carrying and he states that he does not answer any questions from police without his lawyer, other than those required by law.

Besides the eventual ticket for whatever the stop was originally for, what authority does the cop have to do any more? How does he legally justify the search to see if there is a weapon to disarm the person?

[JP171]

my actions during a stop by a LEO are very simple, I shut off my vehicle, remove my helmet and sit there till the LEO comes up, don't do anything else, let them tell me what they want me to do before I do it. they ask for my DL and ins. I give them the dl,Ins. and CHL if I am carrying, if I'm not carrying I don't give them the CHL. I think that if you give the CHL it is telling them you have a weapon on you at that time. since I can't take a weapon to work I rarely give them my CHL when I get stopped since it seems like I get stopped going to or comming from work, almost no other time. I have been stopped in my truck maybe 2 times in the last 20 years and do like almost everyone else says, window down interior light on hands on steering wheel, wait till the LEO comes and tells me what they want me to do. I really don't care to get shot, been there done that. it hurts I promise you it does

[speedsix]

I don't know why TXDPS would say consult your local law enforcement...it's a STATE law that we notify them each time they ask for ID...as some have said, it's simplest to hand over ID/Dr.Lic and CHL when requested...and let him take it from there.

Just a fine point that might clarify this a little. There is no state law requiring you to verbally inform the officer of anything. The law requires you to produce both the CHL and the ID/TXDL when asked, and then only if you are actually armed.

I agree that telling him is good advice, just as I agree that producing both even when you are not armed is also good advice, even though not legally required.

One of my (many) complaints about the way our laws are written is that you are required to produce the CHL, and the officer has the legal authority to disarm you, but you are not required to answer his question of whether or not you are carrying. Remembering that this is an academic discussion of what the law requires and not advice for behavior on the street, have you ever wondered what happens to a person who tries to obey the law but is not going to be cooperative other than that? He is stopped for something and asked for his DL. He gives up both his DL and his CHL. The officer asks if he is carrying and he states that he does not answer any questions from police without his lawyer, other than those required by law.

Besides the eventual ticket for whatever the stop was originally for, what authority does the cop have to do any more? How does he legally justify the search to see if there is a weapon to disarm the person?

...that's my point...HAND him the CHL/D.LIC...then there's nothing to be said...nothing for him to get excited about or mis-hear...and he doesn't have to be alarmed by the verbal notification...we were taught years ago DON'T tell him ANYTHING about a gun...just hand him the CHL...I stick with that, because if something can be messed up...well, you know Murphy...I think it's rude not to answer his question about whether or not you're armed, whether you gave him the CHL or not...and I would expect him to be equally rude to me when he decided whether or not I got a ticket...it's not a thing that he couldn't find out if he so chose, anyways...why be "that way"??? the officer wouldn't have a hard time convincing a judge that because of a belligerant attitude, he was concerned as to why a seemingly upright citizen was acting that way...and searched him for his safety...sure "we got our rights"...so does he...I don't want him excercising all of his...

[helicopterpilotdoug]

As a police officer, here's what I *recommend,* which is also similar to what I do on the occcasions I've been stopped;

Interior lights ON
Window DOWN
Hands on WHEEL

wait for LEO to make contact, listen to their spiel;

say something along the lines of...Before I reach for anything, I'd like you to know I am a CHL holder and I am armed

Follow instructions from there.

Some I've talked to feel this is "bending over for the man" or a needless statement which somehow violates a right to privacy or even the Constitution .

I've heard a lot of paranoid "i don't *have* to say anything" rants. If you feel that way, do what you want. This is what I prefer, and this is what I do for other LEOs. YMMV.

This is exactly what I'd have done before reading this thread. It's good to have a LEO give his thoughts on this subject. Thanks FiveOh for posting this.