CONVERSATION WITH LIBERAL BUDDY ON CHL

[kjolly]

As the legislature is ending their session and tied up in budget debates it looks like this is not passing. I am a firm believer that instructors in schools of all grade levels and college should have a security team of trained people allowed to carry as many churches currently do. Schools should not be free fire zones for the crazies with grudges againist the world.

[SlickTX]

There are so many people out there that hold on to the misguided belief that simply passing laws to control behavior will, in fact, control behavior. They are self-centered in a way. They obey the laws so they expect and believe others will as well. They feel safe in this Utopia.

Too bad the world doesn't share their view.

[The Annoyed Man]

Caleb--Apparently Campus Carry passed through Texas Senate, guess we will see what happens with it.

Cerda-What the heck do you want to carry a gun to school for?

TAM-I didn't say I wanted to. YOU said I wanted to. I merely commented on a bill before the legislature.

Caleb--Things are different outside of California, if criminals can carry here, we think the good citizens should be able to as well.

Cerda-Thats friggin stupid dude

TAM-Is that right?

Caleb--Some say so, I disagree. It's debatable and multi-faceted discussion, so feelings differ. But there are only a few other states besides California that almost definately will not issue concealed handgun licenses to folks of clear mind, morals, and convictions and also legal age. If someone like that chooses to carry for his/her and their families safety, I see nothing wrong with it and fully support it.

Cerda-So what happens when said person has a bad day that throws him over the edge?

TAM-It's Miller Time.

Caleb--The same thing that happens when someone who is unlicensed has a bad day. Point is, licensed or not, if you want to shoot up your town/block/house/walmart-whatever, your going to do it. And licensed or not, if you want to carry a gun there is nothing stopping you. I just choose to do it legally under constitutional and Texas law.

Cerda-So your solution is to have more people with guns? So now someone who gets angry but doesn't own a weapon just has to sucker punch you and then they are armed.

TAM-Not really...... He could just go buy one of his own.

Caleb--Our laws only allow us to carry concealed, so no one would know I had it unless I showed them...or something were to happen where I pulled it in self defense. Also, anyone can get a gun if they want one. If your not legally able to own one, it's as easy to buy off the black market as marijuana.

Cerda-Glad I dont live in Texas, thats a stupid solution

TAM-I'm glad for you too. Please don't move here.

Caleb--It's not a solution, it's simply a matter of protecting ourselves and our families. The same reasoning behind carrying pepper spray or a knife applies to a concealed handgun. Crime isn't something I am trying to solve, I'm just doing everything in my power to stand up for myself and my family if need be.

Cerda-Whatever man.

TAM-"Whatever?" That's the best answer you've got?

Snatchel, I don't think you could have done any better than you did. There are none so blind as those who are willfully so.

[The Mad Moderate]

I'm sure I could have done better, but I'm not as witty as some of y'all are. But the fact is, this is what we are up againt. Liberal minded folks can't get past the "guns kill people.." Ugh.

Some of us can. The best argument I have for them is to say that all I want is a means to protect my self as a last resort, and and why they wouldn't want to do the same. I have converted a few a trip to the range and a couple hundred rounds of ammo later they seem to get "it".

[clarionite]

I had one of the few well reasoned discussions about Campus carry I've had with one of my coworkers yesterday evening.
We were talking about the childish stuff that goes on in Austin to get bills passed, and we rolled around to Campus Carry.

I told him that we lost the battle because we allowed them to control the PR spin. They made it sound like the bill armed
all the 18 year old kids at keg parties. I pointed out that people who would carry already had their licenses and carried everywhere else.
And I told him I was pretty sure those keg parties everyone was so worried about weren't really happening in the class rooms where
this bill allowed carry. The class room was one of the few places the students weren't sowing their wild oats. He agreed that the
drunken out of control student was a straw man. And pointed out that he didn't buy the Virginia Tech argument either, that CHL
holders could stop the situation. I agreed with him, and told him that I felt the Rambo and John Wayne attitudes of some CHL holders
hurts the cause.

He asked me if I were in a situation where I hear gunshots near me, and I turn and there's a BG and a CHL holder who has drawn on the BG,
how do I know which one to shoot. I told him that personally, my first reaction would be to take cover and protect myself and my family if they
were in the area. I'm not a shoot from the hip kind of guy. I have to be sure of my target, what's beyond the target, and have a pretty good reason
for shooting at my target. Just having a gun isn't a valid reason for me to shoot either of them. But the first one to aim his gun at me becomes a likely
target. He seemed to be OK with that answer, and seemed to be a step closer to being okay with Campus Carry by the end of our conversation.

[Hoi Polloi]

In the same genre of conversations, I recently witnessed one that went about like this:

Person 1: You know a store is redneck when they close on Sunday so they can go to "church."
Person 2: You gotta love conservative "family values" where you know daddy is going to get caught with his pants down.
Person 3: Yup.
Person 4: And what store is this? So that I might never go there.
Person 1: Such-and-such store. A friend dragged me there. :(
Person 4: ‎Why?!
Person 1: She had to buy something they had. I don't know why she couldn't buy it at such-and-such chain...
Person 4: Because they don't go to "CHURRRRRCH!" HEATHENS.
Person 1: Yup. Such-and-such chain is going to hell. Everyone knows "going to church" means sitting in front of the TV watching the Nascar with a 24-pack of Budweiser.
Person 3: While the wife makes food and serves the male.
Person 4: Don't forget they have to clean their guns.
Person 2: You better not forget, heathen, or you'll be backhanded like you women deserve.

These are people who go to church every single Sunday to a mainstream Christian denomination. They weren't really commenting on religion (that being something they share), but on conservative politics. A store closed on Sunday led them to say those who identify with conservative politics are adulterous, abusive, hypocritical, redneck, sexist pigs who do nothing but swill beer and watch cars go around in circles. And because of that, they're boycotting the store that's closed on Sundays.

If a store closing on Sunday brings up such "logic" and follow-through, I can't imagine what they'd say to someone who actually does clean guns, watch Nascar, or drink Budweiser. Nothing such a person says is going to be listened to, I can guarantee that. Who would care what an abusive jerk had to say? Anyone identified, in any way, as being a conservative obviously would fall into that category in their minds. This is what they think of anyone who isn't a criminal, but wants to carry a gun. It doesn't matter what your religion or if you like Nascar or if you abuse your wife or if you're even heterosexual. You're still one and the same to them.

[VeggieRonin]

I liked this series of articles quite a bit: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Raging-A ... lf-Defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm a "liberal" by the way - let's be careful we don't throw that word around and make the same mistake the anti-gun people do: come up with a nice convenient term for a very diverse group of people that is emblematic of just the things we don't like.
About now the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are about as useful as "gun-nut" and "hippie". Hoi Polloi's comment is just as true for people who use the term "liberal" in a pejorative way.

I heard once that people are entitled to their own opinions but not entitled to their own facts. If people want to THINK that increasing concealed carry freedom makes things more dangerous, they are welcome to that opinion. Just please acknowledge that the actual facts are exactly the opposite. You can think campus concealed carry will make things more dangerous, and I can think its safer to drive without my seatbelt on. But as long as we are adults we both need to acknowledge the facts don't support our position. Nothing wrong with emotional feeling about things, but realize that as a human society we need to let facts also into the equation.

Pointing out "liberal" support for gun rights helps too. Seeing someone they identify with that position helps:
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/02/25/gun-rally.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/20 ... rship.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reminding them that gun control laws were the Klan's favorite law, that MLK jr and his contingent carried weapons legally for necessary protection, and that http://pinkpistols.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; exists for good reason often helps.

[clarionite]

<snipped>...</snipped> Anyone identified, in any way, as being a conservative obviously would fall into that category in their minds. This is what they think of anyone who isn't a criminal, but wants to carry a gun. It doesn't matter what your religion or if you like Nascar or if you abuse your wife or if you're even heterosexual. You're still one and the same to them.

Hoi Polloi,

We'll never get through to bigots like that. I know a couple of CHL holders around San Antonio who are pretty harsh in their opinions of church goers too.
I'm just proud to represent some of what they're denigrating...

1. I clean my weapons regularly, I'm a fan of them working when I want them to. (Plus, They're too expensive to let them ruin)
2. I enjoy a good dark beer from time to time. Especially when cooking on the grill in Texas summers.
3. I never did care much for Nascar, I'll watch a race on a dirt track any day of the week though.


I'm not much on back handing my wife though... I'm fond of keeping All of my parts attached, and she knows where I sleep and where we keep the good knives.

Edit: Edited because on second thought I felt I might be getting close to rules violations.

[Pawpaw]

I can't imagine what they'd say to someone who actually does clean guns, watch Nascar, or drink Budweiser.

I guess I'm safe then... I can't stand Budweiser.

[snatchel]

Veggie--My bad, I'm sorry for blaming the liberals. I got a little frustrated.

Thanks for the support though y'all. I actually sat in the auditorium at my school (ASU) during a presentation and Q&A about campus carry. I was ... amazed at how ignorant folks are. I hate to bash college students, but some of them are the worst advocates against campus carry I have seen because of a couple of reasons:
1. They are young
2. They have little or NO idea of what CHL is, or the responsibilities and reprocussions of using it improperly

I am young @ 25 years old, but after 6 years military I feel quite a bit more mature than most my age. Most of the kids in that auditorium with me were no older than 20. The questions they were asking were:

"Why would we put guns in the hands of kids who are no doubt going to party all the time"
-no alcohol with CHL while carrying, we all know this

"Wouldn't the fact that having more guns on campus be more dangerous"
-I can't even reply to this without being a sarcastic jerk, so I didn't

"what if I had a CHL, and I were to get assaulted on campus but the guy took my gun away from me? I just made my situation worse."
-My wife actually wispered to me, "I would take that risk. I'd go down fighting before I ever let some -expletive- touch me like that.

It's a losing battle because we are faced with an opposition of blind ignorance.

[clarionite]

"Why would we put guns in the hands of kids who are no doubt going to party all the time"
-no alcohol with CHL while carrying, we all know this

I know it's been a while since I was in College (ASU for me too, Arkansas State though) but I can't remember one time I attended a kegger on campus in a classroom. I need to find out which schools here in Texas are having such an issue with drinking and debauchery in their classrooms, that CHL carry would be such an issue. I have two teens who will be in College soon. I need to make sure they're not attending these schools.

[VeggieRonin]

Snatchel you don't have to apologize to me.
As long as 2nd Amendment issues are a culture war between "us" and "them" we will make no progress. As soon as these issues are about shared values as Americans that don't have anything to do with other beliefs, we have a chance to help people understand. This is not a "conservative" or "liberal" thing - it's an American civil rights, tolerance, and privacy thing.
/lecture

[snatchel]

LoL @ Veggie. Eloquent :)

Angelo State University, thats where all the is at. And if that isn't bad enough, teaches a class on campus on how to people. All the booze makes a daily occurence, so imagine if they had guns instead of just fists! I hope your because i'm no ...I the constitution, and it plainly says that guns kill people... that whole "bear arms" thing is a huge misinterpretation. It was referring to the animal's arms. The right to keep Bears' arms to hang on our wall... too bad PETA doesn't like us to enlighten folks on that.

[The Mad Moderate]

Snatchel you don't have to apologize to me.
As long as 2nd Amendment issues are a culture war between "us" and "them" we will make no progress. As soon as these issues are about shared values as Americans that don't have anything to do with other beliefs, we have a chance to help people understand. This is not a "conservative" or "liberal" thing - it's an American civil rights, tolerance, and privacy thing.
/lecture

[Slowplay]

Snatchel you don't have to apologize to me.
As long as 2nd Amendment issues are a culture war between "us" and "them" we will make no progress. As soon as these issues are about shared values as Americans that don't have anything to do with other beliefs, we have a chance to help people understand. This is not a "conservative" or "liberal" thing - it's an American civil rights, tolerance, and privacy thing.
/lecture

The shared values we should all have is respect for and an understanding of the U.S. Constitution. Throwing away labels such as conservative and liberal/progressive doesn't actually help anyone but liberal/progressives that would choose to "make progress" and "fix" things behind a curtain or cloud of smoke.

Maybe my memory fails me, but wasn't there a guy that used to say "it shouldn't be about red states and blue states, it should be about the United States" - and isn't that the same guy that's turned out to be one of the most partisan/divisive presidents the U.S. has ever seen in recent history? I guess it's okay though, it's not like he's been stacking the the Supreme Court with those that threaten the 2nd Amendment (and other individual rights)...[/rant off]