Should the 380 be discouraged as a CCW ?

[Excaliber]

The only thing I'll say about your friend's single action .22 is that it is somewhat more useful for self defense than a pellet pistol, even if only marginally so. Carrying a big heavy gun that fires tiny bullets manages to combine the low ends of both convenience and stopping power. The logic for doing so escapes me.

My late great aunt once broke her wrist by trying to open a bag of chips. If she were still with us, which non-heavy, non-.22LR handgun would you suggest she carry?

(Though I will say that carrying a single-action non-semi-automatic gun is just begging for your bad day to rapidly continue its southward trend.)

Since you asked: Pepperblaster II by Kimber.

Folks with debilitating physical conditions need solutions customized to their individual needs, but their limitations shouldn't be used to draw conclusions on what's best for those not so afflicted.

A detailed discussion of that topic would properly be addressed in a different dedicated thread.

[Dave2]

The only thing I'll say about your friend's single action .22 is that it is somewhat more useful for self defense than a pellet pistol, even if only marginally so. Carrying a big heavy gun that fires tiny bullets manages to combine the low ends of both convenience and stopping power. The logic for doing so escapes me.

My late great aunt once broke her wrist by trying to open a bag of chips. If she were still with us, which non-heavy, non-.22LR handgun would you suggest she carry?

(Though I will say that carrying a single-action non-semi-automatic gun is just begging for your bad day to rapidly continue its southward trend.)

Since you asked: Pepperblaster II by Kimber.

Folks with debilitating physical conditions need solutions customized to their individual needs, but their limitations shouldn't be used to draw conclusions on what's best for those not so afflicted.

A detailed discussion of that topic would properly be addressed in a different dedicated thread.

Oooh... That's a neat... um... well, technically I guess it's a gun. I might have to get one for my sister.

[fulano]

Since you asked: Pepperblaster II by Kimber.

Folks with debilitating physical conditions need solutions customized to their individual needs, but their limitations shouldn't be used to draw conclusions on what's best for those not so afflicted.

A detailed discussion of that topic would properly be addressed in a different dedicated thread.

Wow!! This would be better than "Bear Spray" for hiking in the back country. For sure it would be easier to aim than those dumb cans that look like spray paint or a mini fire extinguisher. Thanks for the info.

[punkndisorderly]

While I agree that a .380 (or 22 for that matter) is better than no gun at all or a gun left at home where it does you no good, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be discouraged. If that's all someone is willing or able to carry, then that's what they should carry. But, in the event they actually need to use their firearm, I still think most people would be much better served by a subcompact or compact in 9mm or larger in a good quality holster on a good quality belt.

I spent four hours yesterday helping a buddy move in the 95+ heat yesterday. Was carrying my Glock 26 in a summer special holster and galco gun belt while wearing cargo shorts and an untucked polo. It never felt uncomfortable.

I'll use an analogy. If a young man or woman came up to me and said they're thinking of going back to school to get a college degree and were going to go to a Junior College for a liberal arts degree, I would try to steer them to one of the vocational programs at a minimum and really try to push them towards a four year degree that's currently in demand like accounting. If the liberal arts degree is all they are willing or able to do, I'd agree that it was better than no degree (much like a 380 is better than no gun), but they're investing a lot of faith into a degree that probably won't get them where they want to go (much like investing faith into a 380 may not do what they need it to against a determined or deranged attacker). Yes, the liberal arts degree is likely easier, less expensive, and more convenient (much as carrying a pocket 380 as compared to a larger pistol), but a four year degree in accounting, while more difficult to obtain, will be much more beneficial when you actually have to put the degree to work (much as a larger caliber gun will be more effective).

One thing that kind of bothers me about 380's and snubbies is that, while they are probably the biggest sellers as far as concealed carry guns go, I think the vast majority of people buy them and don't train with them at all. They may run a box of rounds through it once a year to make sure it still works, but that's about it. I hardly ever see people with the pocket 380's or snubbies at the range which consistantly surprises me given the number of them sold now.

[Steve M]

Hi, great forum, first post here.

I'll weigh in first by saying .380, with a modern HP loading, is a viable defensive round. Certainly there are more effective options out there, but to consider a larger caliber brings into play what most of this thread is really about: handgun choice for concealed carry.

Previous posters have brought up some of the main considerations: size, weight, magazine capacity and of course "stopping power". When I recommend a pistol for CCW, there are three additional criteria I consider:

Sight radius. More is better, makes a big difference vis a vis accuracy and speed of sighted fire.

Recoil. Just because your two big hands can manage a .500 Nitro revolver when you set your mind to it doesn't mean it's a good CCW option. In a gunfight one can find oneself shooting from all kinds of "improper" stances, grips, one-handed, and even the "weak side" hand. Truth be told, in these situations even .45 ACP is too much for most. And of course the lighter and shorter a pistol is the greater the effect of recoil. This criteria supports the .380 caliber, but goes against the sub-compact designs of most .380 pistols carried as a CCW.

Balance. A pistol that is all grip and no barrel suffers from recoil issues as described above, but also is more difficult to hold steady during sighted fire due to little forward weight.

These criteria weigh heavily against getting the shortest-smallest pistol possible, as many are inclined to do. Further, because most .380s selected for CCW are sub-compact types, these criteria make most .380 pistols quite sub-optimal as a defensive pistol choice. No doubt body geometry and concealment requirements may dictate the smallest pistol possible, but carrying a sub-compact .380 has to be considered a last option, not a primary CCW choice.

That said, I agree the best pistol to CCW is the one you have with you when the fight starts. If someone just isn't comfortable with a larger pistol and subsequently doesn't carry it, that larger pistol does them little good. For these people, I advise thinking of a subcompact pistol as a "starter", and seek to move up to a larger pistol as soon as possible.

[Excaliber]

Since you asked: Pepperblaster II by Kimber.

Folks with debilitating physical conditions need solutions customized to their individual needs, but their limitations shouldn't be used to draw conclusions on what's best for those not so afflicted.

A detailed discussion of that topic would properly be addressed in a different dedicated thread.

Wow!! This would be better than "Bear Spray" for hiking in the back country. For sure it would be easier to aim than those dumb cans that look like spray paint or a mini fire extinguisher. Thanks for the info.

The Pepperblaster is designed for people, not for bears. The quantity of agent fired with each shot wouldn't give me much comfort when going up against a big bruin, and it holds only two shots which may not be enough against a large animal.

There's a reason for carrying those "fire extinguisher" units - they hold lots more agent that allow you to hose down a moving bear to achieve the effect you need.

[speedsix]

...has it been established by court case how large (what capacity) can be carried in Tx by civilians??? The law is rather vague on this...

[drjoker]

I think the vast majority of people buy them and don't train with them at all. They may run a box of rounds through it once a year to make sure it still works, but that's about it. I hardly ever see people with the pocket 380's or snubbies at the range which consistantly surprises me given the number of them sold now.

Yeah, you're right about that. Most people who are not gun enthusiasts like us will buy the smallest, lightest, most concealable gun they can get. Poor people will buy whatever they can afford and with the price of ammo these days, what they can afford to shoot would be a 22lr. In other words, most people will practice with a 22lr or buy a 380 and practice once or twice a year with it, at the most.

I enjoy introducing people to shooting and guns. I think that the more people are familiar with guns, the less scarier they become. Once the "scary gun feeling" gets thrown out of the equation, people are more apt to think about guns in a logical manner. I hope that this would mean more people at the ballot boxes in our corner.

Over the years, I've introduced a lot of people to guns and here are some recent examples from this year;
1. A guy at work. I let him shoot my guns and he decided that he wants a shotgun for HD. He bought it two months ago and has not even tested it. He says that he's dry fired it so it should work and he's shot my shotgun so he knows how to shoot shotguns. He's a liberal, but I'm hoping that he'll vote pro gun at the ballot box due to my efforts.

2. The elderly mother of a girl I used to date more than a decade ago. She's a bit fuddle minded and it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks so I taught her to shoot my 22lr single action revolver. That way, even if she accidentally turned around during shooting practice to say something to me and accidentally muzzle me, I know that I probably won't get killed since you have to cock the hammer just before you pull the trigger in order for the gun to fire. It's funny how the Heritage 22lr revolver costs only $177 at Academy but it is my favorite gun. I prefer it to guns that cost over ten times as much. The trigger is light and crisp, the hammer is featherweight, the 6.5 inch barrel means the sight radius is long so it is very accurate, and the gun has zero recoil because it is extremely heavy but only fires 22lr. She also liked it, so she bought one for HD and practices regularly with it. I would prefer to use it for HD over my S&W J frame revolver which has a short sight radius, heavy hammer, heavy trigger, and modest recoil.

3. A girl at work. She got a little 380 pocket Sig and she carries it regularly. She practices with it a couple times a year. Those of you who think a 380 is bad..., she was carrying an antique Colt .25ACP pocket pistol. The thing was not safe because antique guns like that are not drop proof. If you dropped it, the thing would have an AD. I tried to talk her out of it, but she stubbornly persisted saying that if the gun was good enough for her Grandpa to carry it as his only CCW for over half a century, then it's good enough for her. Ugh.... Lucky for her, the firing pin broke on her antique gun and she got a little 380 Sig to replace it.

4. My wife. She was very anti-gun when we first got married, but she's warmed up a bit and got a CHL. She complained that I don't own any higher caliber handguns such as a .45. She appropriated my 9mm Glock 26 as her CCW. I've only seen her carry it once to rent a DVD from one of those Redbox machines at 1AM. She never practices with it stating, "It's a gun. You pull the trigger and it goes bang. You don't have to practice with it. You have to be a retard to miss a man sized target from a couple feet away. You go to the gun range to practice by shooting at targets 20 feet away. Nobody is going to try to rob or rape me from 20 feet away." She wants a .45 ACP Colt 100 year anniversary edition as a CCW. That crisp single action trigger and the fact that she never practices is a recipe for disaster so I'm going to let her keep my Glock 26 until she starts practicing regularly. I tell her that if she practices at least once a month for 3 months with me at the range, then I'll buy her the Colt centennial .45 acp 1911 for her to use as her CCW. She has not taken me up on my offer yet....

[fulano]

Since you asked: Pepperblaster II by Kimber.

Folks with debilitating physical conditions need solutions customized to their individual needs, but their limitations shouldn't be used to draw conclusions on what's best for those not so afflicted.

A detailed discussion of that topic would properly be addressed in a different dedicated thread.

Wow!! This would be better than "Bear Spray" for hiking in the back country. For sure it would be easier to aim than those dumb cans that look like spray paint or a mini fire extinguisher. Thanks for the info.

The Pepperblaster is designed for people, not for bears. The quantity of agent fired with each shot wouldn't give me much comfort when going up against a big bruin, and it holds only two shots which may not be enough against a large animal.

There's a reason for carrying those "fire extinguisher" units - they hold lots more agent that allow you to hose down a moving bear to achieve the effect you need.

Great points. May be better to carry Bear Spray to protect from human harm. Sort of fits this thread of 380 vs something bigger.

[punkndisorderly]

I think the vast majority of people buy them and don't train with them at all. They may run a box of rounds through it once a year to make sure it still works, but that's about it. I hardly ever see people with the pocket 380's or snubbies at the range which consistantly surprises me given the number of them sold now.

Yeah, you're right about that. Most people who are not gun enthusiasts like us will buy the smallest, lightest, most concealable gun they can get. Poor people will buy whatever they can afford and with the price of ammo these days, what they can afford to shoot would be a 22lr. In other words, most people will practice with a 22lr or buy a 380 and practice once or twice a year with it, at the most.

I have my suspicions that many of even the gun enthusiasts are doing much the same. They may shoot their full size pistols fairly freqently and even do competitions, but I would say the majority that choose to carry pocket pistols, be they snubbie's or pocket 380's, very rarely practice with them either in terms of live fire at the range or in terms of drawing, reloading, and rehostering (or repocketing as the case may be).

A gun is not a magic talisman. If you have to draw, doing so from a pocket is more difficult than from a holster, espcially given the small grips of most pocket pistols. Doubly so if a pocket holster isn't used and the pistol has come to rest in the pocket at an odd angle.

Once you draw, the bad guy may decide that he wants to go elsewhere. But if it comes to where the point where the trigger needs to be pulled, again that pocket 380 is going to put you at a disadvantage. Many advocates of the 380 are quick to point out it's all about shot placement. There's something to be said for that. But putting those rounds on target in a pistol the user practices with rarely, while under stress, and with a pistol that is more difficult to shoot accurately form the start (back to generally poor sights, most with no night sights, short sight radius, stiff triggers, and less than ideal grips) will be more difficult. On top of all of that, you still have a round that is putting you at a disadvantage, however slight, when compared to 9mm, .40, .357sig, .45acp, 10mm, 44 special, etc.

And, lastly, if those rounds don't do the trick, or there are more baddies around, you have reloading, again under stress and with a handgun that the user isn't intimately familiar with. Worse, many of the people that suscribe to the "have a gun, any gun" philosophy also aren't going to carry a spare magazine or speedloader.

I think the majority of these can be satisfactorily overcome if someone is dedicated enough to train to minimize it. However, I think the majority of people who are, also tend to be dedicated enough to carry something larger anyway.

Yes, in many instances, merely going for a gun may disuade the attacker, pointing a gun at the attacker also may disuade him, and six rounds of .380 out of a very short barrel, with good shot placement may be all you need to end the deadly threat. However, the fewer "mays" the better in my book. Again, if that's all you are willing to carry, I would much rather you have that 380 or 22 or pepper spray or slinghshot or swiss army knife than nothing. But, I'd encourage you to move at least a little up the size and caliber food chain.

[Domineaux]

I agree that a .380 is better than nothing, and in most cases will be sufficient as long as you do your part, but having more will certainly be a good thing if needed. I have a Bersa Thunder 380 and think it is a good CCW but will only use it for light duty once I have a 1911 as planned for my next and main pistol.

When confronted with life threatening violence, I want to BEG (Bring Enough Gun) instead of beg for my life!

[speedsix]

...I like that...I've always liked the way John Wayne dressed to go out better'n James Bond!!! More is better...

[The Annoyed Man]

I own 2 .380s, a Kel-Tec P3AT and a Colt Government, and I don't carry either of them. My "minimum" carry gun is a scandium framed .357 snubbie. It may only carry 5 rounds, but those are 5 rounds of absolute beat-down. If my shot placement is not perfect with a .380, then I risk having just made the guy really, REALLY mad at me. If my shot placement is not perfect with my .357, the muzzle blast alone will likely make him soil himself (without ear protection, it might make me soil myself), and a solid hit with a .357 anywhere in the torso has a high probability of taking the other guy out of the fight....which is my primary goal.

Most of you know how I love my 1911 pistols. Some will disagree, but in both my mind and my heart, the 1911 is the perfect pistol. It is flat and conceals easily in a 3" gun, and it still conceals pretty well in a full-sized 5" gun. It somewhat lacks magazine capacity compared to the tupperware guns, but tactical reloads are fairly easy and even more recent designs like Sig P220s are still single stack .45s with an 8 round capacity. And speaking of .45 ACP, it is just darn hard to argue with its effectiveness. I'm not knocking the effectiveness of 9mm, but I think that its prevalence as a military and police caliber loaded in double stack pistols was more of a reaction on the part of law enforcement agencies and military services to increase capacity as an offset to poor gun handling skills than it was because a 15+1 round 9mm pistol is inherently a better choice at pistol shooting distances than a 8+1 round .45 ACP pistol.

But my preference for the 1911 design is as much a matter of the heart as anything else, and I fully acknowledge that a .45 caliber Glock or M&P is a great defensive pistol. For my own use, I find the full-sized Glock G21 to be less easily concealable than a full-sized 1911 in the same caliber, and we're talking about concealed carry pistols for personal defense use in this thread. And that brings me back to the .380 as a CCW caliber....

A Bersa Thunder weighs 20 oz and has a 7+1 capacity in .380, and is 1.3" in width, with an MSRP of about $330.00. I just saw one on gunbroker.com selling with a "buy now" price of $350.00

A Kahr CW9 weighs 15 oz and has a 7+1 capacity in 9mm, and is .9" wide, with an MSRP of $549. I saw one at Euless Guns and Ammo the other day for $499.00.

So for roughly $150.00 more, I can have a gun with the same capacity as a Bersa Thunder, which weighs 5 oz less, is nearly a half inch narrower, and which is chambered in 9mm instead of .380. I don't mean to belittle anybody's personal finances, but in the greater scheme of things, $150 is not a big difference for a pistol capable of firing +P 9mm. That seems like a no-brainer to me. Kahr has other, even smaller and lighter 9mm pistols. Kimber has the new Solo. There are other manufacturers selling small and light 9mm pistols for pretty reasonable prices. My M&P340 .357 weighs 13 oz and packs MAJOR power. With those kind of choices, why settle for a .380?

There are just too many other good choices, chambered in calibers with far more authority than that particular cartridge. That's just my 2¢.

[Purplehood]

Wow.

I bought my expensive Micro Desert Eagle because I wanted a quality weapon for use during those occasions that I felt my .40 cal was inappropriate. I also practice with it at the range and hate firing the little monster, but I do fire it to make sure it functions and that I can hit the broad-side of a barn.

[Domineaux]

I took my CHL class with my Bersa Thunder 380 and still show 244/250 so I think it is plenty adequate for defensive shooting, though it certainly has better purchase (grip) than micro 380's like the P3AT and LCP.