Does "No weapons" mean "No CHL"?

[kjolly]

don't make a stand on your rights. Individual officers may not understand your rights and if you seem obstructive they can make it difficult for you. also under 30.06 a verbal notice is all that is needed.

[Teamless]

can they make you leave

If a park worker says "leave, you can't carry a gun here", I wouldn't comply, but would ask them to confirm with a police officer.
If the officer said to leave, then I would not tempt the ride, but would inform their commanding officer that the officer does not understand the law

[rm9792]

don't make a stand on your rights. Individual officers may not understand your rights and if you seem obstructive they can make it difficult for you. also under 30.06 a verbal notice is all that is needed.

If it is city property then verbal notice is not valid either.

[Bulldog1911]

...thanks for going through that with me...I guess I'm confused because of the different kinds of parks...this one is not 30.06 posted...just a sign up with a lot of dont's...among which is "no firearms or weapons"...but it's signed by the County...

Doen't matter if George W signed it. It's just a gunbuster sign. Doesn't apply to CHL's

[Teamless]

It's just a gunbuster sign. Doesn't apply to CHL's

[speedsix]

don't make a stand on your rights. Individual officers may not understand your rights and if you seem obstructive they can make it difficult for you. also under 30.06 a verbal notice is all that is needed.

If it is city property then verbal notice is not valid either.

...that's the essence of my question...it's county property...are they handled like city property...if so, they can't 30.06 us, either with signage or verbal notice...in essence, a CHL'er can carry there...it seems that 30.06(e) applies to county as well and their sign is just out-of-date...I haven't found a legal difference between a city park and a county park...
...reading 30.06(e), if we have a valid CHL, we can't be charged with trespass by a CHL holder on the properties/in the premises covered by that section...so they simply can't prevent our carrying there...

[speedsix]

don't make a stand on your rights. Individual officers may not understand your rights and if you seem obstructive they can make it difficult for you. also under 30.06 a verbal notice is all that is needed.

...this country was built/preserved by folks who would make a stand on their rights...even if it cost them...which it often did...you won't hear me "baaaaaaaing"...

[Jeff Barriault]

A municipality can not regulate the carrying of a firearm in a public park by a CHL holder. Here is a link to the Texas statute: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... LG.229.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; That sounds pretty clear to me. As a CHL holder you can ignore no gun signs at city and county parks.

Now, if the park has been leased for a private event, the event organizers could theoretically use 30.06 signs. The same holds true for the GRB, a government owned facility, having 30.06 signs barring concealed handguns from the gun show. The private organizers for the event can search you and provide verbal 30.06 at the gate. Under the terms of the lease they are in control of the property for the duration of their event. This is kind of one of those gray areas that are a bit unclear under the law. I don't particularly want to test those waters myself, but more power to you if that is something you want to do.

And finally there are City sponsored events like Mardi Gras in Galveston. The city contracts private security at the entrances to public streets and wands everyone with weapons. The last time I went I simply found an officer and showed him my CHL and he directed the security guy to let me pass without wanding. Of course your milage may vary if you encounter an officer who doesn't know the law. Your best bet is to try a different entrance or find some other means to get in. The bottom line is the city can't ban you from carrying on a public street. And once you're in there aren't any laws to prosecute you for carrying even though there may be no gun signs.

[G.A. Heath]

A municipality can not regulate the carrying of a firearm in a public park by a CHL holder. Here is a link to the Texas statute: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... LG.229.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; That sounds pretty clear to me. As a CHL holder you can ignore no gun signs at city and county parks.

Now, if the park has been leased for a private event, the event organizers could theoretically use 30.06 signs. The same holds true for the GRB, a government owned facility, having 30.06 signs barring concealed handguns from the gun show. The private organizers for the event can search you and provide verbal 30.06 at the gate. Under the terms of the lease they are in control of the property for the duration of their event. This is kind of one of those gray areas that are a bit unclear under the law. I don't particularly want to test those waters myself, but more power to you if that is something you want to do.

And finally there are City sponsored events like Mardi Gras in Galveston. The city contracts private security at the entrances to public streets and wands everyone with weapons. The last time I went I simply found an officer and showed him my CHL and he directed the security guy to let me pass without wanding. Of course your milage may vary if you encounter an officer who doesn't know the law. Your best bet is to try a different entrance or find some other means to get in. The bottom line is the city can't ban you from carrying on a public street. And once you're in there aren't any laws to prosecute you for carrying even though there may be no gun signs.

Private events held on/in government property have no exception to TPC 30.06(e). A partying who is in control of a property via a lease has no more rights on that property than the party leasing the property to them. This is not theoretical, now they may get away with it but that is another issue.

[A-R]

don't make a stand on your rights. Individual officers may not understand your rights and if you seem obstructive they can make it difficult for you. also under 30.06 a verbal notice is all that is needed.

If it is city property then verbal notice is not valid either.

...that's the essence of my question...it's county property...are they handled like city property...if so, they can't 30.06 us, either with signage or verbal notice...in essence, a CHL'er can carry there...it seems that 30.06(e) applies to county as well and their sign is just out-of-date...I haven't found a legal difference between a city park and a county park...
...reading 30.06(e), if we have a valid CHL, we can't be charged with trespass by a CHL holder on the properties/in the premises covered by that section...so they simply can't prevent our carrying there...

This is an interesting topic whether there is a difference between regulating firearms in city and county property. As Jeff already mentioned, Local Government Code 229 makes very clear the limitations on municipalities regulating firearms. But there is no similar list of limitations on counties.

However, doesn't Penal Code 1.08 basically pre-empt most any government subdivision of the state from regulating anything in the Penal Code?

Sec. 1.08. PREEMPTION. No governmental subdivision or agency may enact or enforce a law that makes any conduct covered by this code an offense subject to a criminal penalty. This section shall apply only as long as the law governing the conduct proscribed by this code is legally enforceable.

Question would be what is to stop a county from doing any of the things listed below that a city is specifically prohibited from doing? Specifically regarding section (b)(6) below .... could a county post a county law banning possession of firearms in a county park by anyone and everyone?

Local Government Code Sec. 229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES.

(a) A municipality may not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition, or firearm supplies.

(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed for personal or national defense, law enforcement, or another lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the limits of the municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a business, or uses at a business under the municipality's fire code, zoning ordinance, or land-use regulations as long as the code, ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5) of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an insurrection, riot, or natural disaster if the municipality finds the regulations necessary to protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25 pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50 pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a: (A) public park;(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental body;(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.

(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not apply if the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event and the firearm is of the type commonly used in the activity.(d) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(4) does not authorize the seizure or confiscation

[speedsix]

...THANKS, JEFF!!! I had dim memory of reading something like this...this is it...since a county is a subdivision of and shadowed over by the state...I wouldn't think they could/would ignore state law such as 30.06, either...
...this on-line legal dictionary description seems to say that counties are to administrate (carry out) state laws...

"A county is distinguishable from a city or Municipal Corporation, since a municipal corporation has a dual character, both public and private, while a county is established by the state and is considered to be an agency thereof. Through home rule, a municipality may make certain decisions on matters of local concern, while a county is controlled by the state and does the work of state administration."

[Bullwhip]

However, doesn't Penal Code 1.08 basically pre-empt most any government subdivision of the state from regulating anything in the Penal Code?

Sec. 1.08. PREEMPTION. No governmental subdivision or agency may enact or enforce a law that makes any conduct covered by this code an offense subject to a criminal penalty. This section shall apply only as long as the law governing the conduct proscribed by this code is legally enforceable.

Cant' be any other way by the TX Constitution:

Sec. 23. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.

"the Legislature" shall have the power, no other goverment body.

[speedsix]

...that nails it for me...never read that preemption law...thanks, guys, for the class!!!

[Skiprr]

I’ll throw another wrench into the discussion with an item that’s always been a personal frustration for me. The situation exists in other cities, but is prominent in west Houston because of the city’s topology, growth, and urban sprawl over the past decades.

Three large parks are west of Houston, two north and one south of I-10 outside of the Beltway, and running more or less between Eldridge Parkway and Barker-Cypress Road. The land for these areas was set aside in 1946. At the time, the densely populated areas of Houston ended over 15 miles to the east. This was rural land, previously used mainly for rice cultivation. Now, they lie in the middle of heavy suburban development, and are virtually split by the so-called Energy Corridor along I-10.

Courtesy of Google Maps, you can see the relative size of these areas of land in a wide satellite view of Houston:



These parks are:

• George Bush Park; approximately 7,800 acres south of I-10; main entrance at 16756 Westheimer; administered and maintained by Harris County, Precinct 3. Facilities include over 11 miles of walking trails, nature trails, picnic areas, soccer, baseball, softball fields, an equestrian trail, a dog park, a model airplane airport, and it is home to American Shooting Centers.
• Cullen Park; approximately 9,200 acres south of I-10; main entrance at 19008 Saums Road; administered and maintained by the City of Houston Parks and Recreation Department. Facilities include over eight miles of hike and bike trails (3.34 miles paved), a complete baseball/softball complex with clubhouse, viewing stands, and four diamonds, multiple picnic areas and equipped playgrounds, nature areas including wildflower plantings and wetlands, an archery range, and an HEB-sponsored water playground for kids.
• Bear Creek Park; approximately 2,200 acres north of I-10; main entrance off Eldridge at 3535 War Memorial Drive; administered and maintained by Harris County, Precinct 3. Facilities include a 54-hole golf course, a driving range and two practice putting greens, over two miles of paved and lighted walking trails, tennis courts, baseball, softball, and soccer fields, an equestrian trail, a protected wildlife habitat and aviary, and it is home to the Harris County War Memorial.

The kicker? Even though these are county and city parks, they reside on land owned and governed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Bear Creek Park and Cullen Park are part of a 13,693 acre area owned by the COE and designated as the Addicks Reservoir; George Bush Park is part of a 12,583 acre area owned by the COE and designated as the Barker Reservoir.

The COE can grant other entities, public or private, use of portions of their land, and can suspend some of their regulations to the benefit of the lessee, at the discretion of the COE. That’s how American Shooting Centers can operate on the land. The Addicks range of the Bayou Rifles club also resides on COE property.

COE land is federal property. However, the federal laws governing the possession of firearms on COE land are not limited to U.S. Title 18. To see that whole picture you have to read Title 36, Chapter III, Part 327. Specifically:

327.13 Explosives, Firearms, Other Weapons and Fireworks

(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows or other weapons is prohibited unless:

• (1) in the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
  (2) being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under Section 327.8, with devices being unloaded when being transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;
  (3) being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
  (4) written permission has been received from the District Commander.

(b) Possession of explosive or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

And...

327.26 State and Local Laws

(a) Except as otherwise provided herein or by the Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:

• (1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;
  (2) Hunting, fishing, and trapping;
  (3) Use of firearms or other weapons;
  (4) Civil disobedience and criminal acts;
  (5) Littering, sanitation and pollution; and
  (6) Alcohol or other controlled substances.

(b) These state and local laws and ordinances are enforced by those state and local enforcement agencies established and authorized for that purpose.

While 327.26(a)(3) might lead you to believe that a CHL would allow you to carry on COE property, it is the COE’s Legal Department’s contention that nowhere inside the COE boundaries is a weapon/firearm allowed, loaded or unloaded, with a CHL or without, unless expressly described in 327.13. Further, within the boundaries of COE-owned land/water, they have full authority to search private property for firearms or explosives even if in a state, county, or municipal park. Though they do admit that searches typically happen only with obvious and serious cause.

Complicating the matter is that there seems to be no requirement to clearly mark with signage all the boundaries of COE land. If a CHL holder is not already aware of the COE land boundaries, he may simply believe he is driving, biking, or walking into a county or city park just like any other county or city park. For example, at the northwest corner of George Bush Park the hike and bike trails leave (or enter, if you’re heading west) the COE area and continue for several miles in two different branches known as the Terry Hershey Park Hike & Bike Trail. The portion of the trails east of Highway 6 are not on COE land; you enter COE land after crossing the trail underpass at Highway 6.

Ultimately, this was a long-winded example as a way to say that a state/county/city park is not always a state/county/city park when it comes to carrying a firearm. Unless you are a LEO, you need to do your research before assuming a park is really what it seems to be.

And, at least in west Houston, this isn’t a small exception: Cullen Park is the largest park in Greater Houston by acreage, and George Bush Park is second largest. Bear Creek Park comes in at fourth behind Lake Houston Park. These three parks total 19,200 acres...that’s 30 square miles of county/city parks that sit on land owned by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and, according to them, U.S. Title 36, Chapter III, Part 327 makes it against federal law to carry on this property either under authority of your CHL or under the Texas Motorists Protection Act.

[speedsix]

...what I can get from all this is that the feds ignore everything and everybody but their own wishes, and those are arbitrary...it's maddening...and wrong...
...the park I posted about is County land, and a County park, administrated(ruled over) by a city govt. within that county...more confusion in rhetoric, but trumped over by state rule THROUGH the county...this federal mess is the same...no matter who administrates, the feds make the rules...and, like most other areas of life, NOT to "the People's" benefit...we've been kinda pushed to the side and those who are supposed to work FOR us...work ON us...