use of pepper spray?

[roff]

yesterday as i was leaving walmart, the car that was parked next to my car's door was open touching my passenger side bumper rear panel area. i had to close his door to open the car door for my girlfriend. then i looked at my car and there were two scratches that lined up from where his door hit my car. so i told the guy "hey your door scratched my car". he kept denying it saying someone else did it and i am just blaming him. so he opens his door and saw that where his door meets my car it was scratched and he still denied it. no im sorry it was an accident. thats when he started to get aggressive. he pulled his shirt up and his hand went straight towards his waistband. i stepped back and put my hand on the butt of my gun and realize he was tightening his belt so his pants dont fall down because he was getting ready for a fight. once he saw what i was grabbing for he got in his car and left.

so if i had some pepper spray on me and he didnt know i was carrying. when would i be allowed to use it? assuming after he tightened his belt he started advancing towards me?

sorry if this isnt the right forum. i didnt know where else to put it.

[wharvey]

so if i had some pepper spray on me and he didnt know i was carrying. when would i be allowed to use it? assuming after he tightened his belt he started advancing towards me?

sorry if this isnt the right forum. i didnt know where else to put it.

Since no one else has offered an opinion I give it a try with regard to the pepper spray. No comment on the rest. Since I wasn't there can't say much about that other than his denial seems to be the norm these days.

I would think that the same rules of engagement would apply regardless of the weapon used. If he started advancing and kept coming after receiving a warning you'd have the right to use the spray as you'd be using non-lethal force against non-lethal force. However I'd imagine you'd also be just a liable to assault charges and/or civil lawsuit as using any other weapon. At least you wouldn't be looking at possible charges for using deadly force.

It would probably end up costing you much more than just getting the scratches fixed. It seems that more times than not you just have to shrug and go with the flow. Hate it but sometimes that is about all you can do. Please note the usual; I'm not a lawyer so . . . .

[A-R]

The term "less-than-lethal" force is preferred now it seems over "non-lethal" (DPS officers in CHL instructor school are careful to use the term "less-than-lethal" to describe pepper spray, tasers, etc) because depending on the concoction sprayed and the individual receiving the spray it can cause "death or serious bodily injury" ... example, you spray something at someone who has a serious allergic reaction to it, to the the point of asphyxiation.

Also, you're not required by any law I know of to give an oral warning before using deadly force - but it may be a good idea to establish your mental/emotional state and the mental/emotional state and intent of your attacker.

So is using genericly termed "pepper spray" merely "force" or is is "deadly force"? I dunno, ask the judge/jury

Also was the other party in this story threatening the OP with "force" or "deadly force"? I dunno, what did he say/do to make the OP think a use of force/deadly force response was appropriate? Did he say, "I'm gonna bash your face in!" then tighten his fist and walk toward the OP? Did he just get up out of his car and make menacing facial gestures?

As with most of these "what if" scenarios, there is not enough information to make a clear-cut black-n-white determination.

As a general rule, just like using a gun, you better have a darn good explanation why you spray someone with pepper spray. Hopefully if you do so the person will only be mildly harmed and upset and not seriously injured or dead. But you still need to have an iron-clad justification that avoids an assault charge.

Lastly, another way to view this, if this situation concerned OP enough to reach for a gun (which is not a "use of deadly force" under Chapter 9 Penal Code, but could be "failure to conceal" under Chapter 46 Penal Code without a justification to use deadly force) then I would think reaching for pepper spray would also be justified. Using peppery spray? Again, if reaching for and unconcealing a gun is justified under PC 46.035 then a use of deadly force must be justified, so using pepper spray would assumably be justified.

please note, none of the above is to disparage or question the OP's action/reaction/questions about this incident. It's very worthwhile and commendable to come here asking these questions and I'm glad the OP escaped this situation without escalation of force - which may or may not have been justified.

[Heartland Patriot]

I've asked this question before and the responses were mostly of a certain nature; specifically, do you have to wait until the other party actually initiates force against you before you return said force? Most of those on here, in a non-lawyer interpretation of the penal code, have stated NO. And by initiate force, I mean that they laid a hand on you or pulled a weapon on you and put it into action. The vast majority of us are NOT lawyers...we have not been trained to (all apologies on how this may sound) split hairs in an effort to either put someone behind bars or keep them from behind bars. All we can do is to read the penal code and interpret it the best we can. Two cars together is pretty close distance. Even if the other individual didn't have a firearm, he might easily have had a knife, or simply been bigger, or more aggressive, or on a substance that impaired his judgment and toleration of pain. And that sort of distance can be closed VERY quickly...obviously getting into a tussle over a couple of scratches on your vehicle might not be the wisest choice (though I understand being ticked off by it, my truck got the side scraped in a Cabelas parking lot a while ago), but if the other party decides to turn it into a force (or deadly force) issue, you have to react to the situation at hand. Glad things turned out as well as they did.

[Target1911]

As I have stated before...I'm a wrecker driver....I tow cars from apartments for various violations ranging from illegally parked in handicaps to parking on the grass.

In the last 3 1/2 yrs I have peppered sprayed about 25 people, pulled my gun 5 times, using it twice. I have not been charged with a single offence. I ALWAYS called 911 IMMEDIATELY. I was in fear for my safety every time. Yes it comes with the job....but just because they don't like me towing their car does not give the right to jeopardize my safety.

If you are reasonably in fear for your safety you have the right to defend yourself. Well, in Tarrant county anyway ;)

[Target1911]

Oh yeah....I forgot to mention one VERY important fact. Of all the times I've sprayed someone, there was only one time that I did NOT get some blow back in me. Sometimes its only enough to slightly irritate you sometimes its more. It mostly depends on the direction and speed if the wind. This last time I got enough on me to take me out of the game for about 10 minutes. That's a very dangerous situation to be in. You can't see, you can't breath, and you feel like you are on FIRE. I WAS VERY LUCKY HE GOT MORE THEN I DID and ran off......to only get caught by the cops a short time later.

[kjolly]

We park our cars in the real world. unfortuantly people are neither considerate or polite. I can understand being upset by this as it is damage I usually have to take a car in to be repainted every three or four years however the cost of responding in force to an incident like this costs much more. De-esculate. It could be carelessness, bad judgement or just rudeness. Make sure that what you are standing up for is worth the cost of the fight.

Appreciate the comment concerning the blow back of the pepaer spray. Had not considered that this can also take you out of the fight.

[couzin]

...liable to assault charges and/or civil lawsuit as using any other weapon...probably end up costing you much more than just getting the scratches fixed...

Yep - I cannot comment on how you approached the person but probably a "sir - your door has scratched my vehicle (POV)" rather than a 'Hey! You scratched...". If the same denial came out of the offending party or if there was some 'bowing up' - just say OK and walk away. Get your cellphone out, call the NON-EMERGENCY police number and ask if there is a cruiser in the area, and snap a photo of the vehicle license plate. If the offending vehicle leaves - then call the police back and cancel the cruiser and write it up to 'jerks that have no respect for anyone and will someday get their payback'.

Terrible to have to be polite and non-escalating to these idjits - but it is the world we live in - especially if you are carrying a weapon.

As far as your original question - I would have held off on pulling pepper spray until the assault is imminent or the actor is approaching in an agressive manner. "Tightening his belt" is probably not going to be a defense in court for having sprayed someone. Second - never put yourself in a confined box (between two vehicles), make em work to get at you, or minimally - have cover if there was a weapon coming out. When that hand went to pull that shirt up I woulda been looking for a hard place. Third - you should have called the police immediately after the incident. Tell them the person was approaching you in an aggressive manner, lifted his shirt like reaching for a weapon, and you put your hand on your weapon and the person fled. It will potentially save you from an accusation by the aggressor of having 'pulled a gun' for 'no reason'.

I don't think anyone is going to hammer or flame you for staging (hand on weapon - ready), you cannot know what someone is doing when the shirt gets untucked/pulled aside except for what you have been trained for - that there is an attempt to pull a weapon of some kind. I'd still called police though...

[Target1911]

+1 for calling the police.
In reference to calling the non-emergency #.......if in a bigger town, 99% of the time they will yell you to hang up and call 911. Don't waist your time trying to find and call any number but 911

[rm9792]

If someone is a big enough jerk to scratch your car then walk away then there is nothing to be gained from confronting them. Cops arent going to CSI the paint to verify or even take a report most likely. I try to park in the farther spots and have been fairly lucky so far with the car. The truck, on the other hand, is fairly safe sitting up on 38" tires. Not many doors that high. As far as repainting, I have had luck in the past with insurance doing it under uninsured motorists coverage.

[boba]

yesterday as i was leaving walmart, the car that was parked next to my car's door was open touching my passenger side bumper rear panel area. i had to close his door to open the car door for my girlfriend. then i looked at my car and there were two scratches that lined up from where his door hit my car. so i told the guy "hey your door scratched my car". he kept denying it saying someone else did it and i am just blaming him. so he opens his door and saw that where his door meets my car it was scratched and he still denied it. no im sorry it was an accident. thats when he started to get aggressive. he pulled his shirt up and his hand went straight towards his waistband. i stepped back and put my hand on the butt of my gun and realize he was tightening his belt so his pants dont fall down because he was getting ready for a fight. once he saw what i was grabbing for he got in his car and left.

so if i had some pepper spray on me and he didnt know i was carrying. when would i be allowed to use it? assuming after he tightened his belt he started advancing towards me?

sorry if this isnt the right forum. i didnt know where else to put it.

It looks like you have a real gift for finding interesting people.
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=17951&p=203962#p203943" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[couzin]

Did not see that coming... And this viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26445&p=301111#p301111 I've seen enough I'll be now...

[roff]

It looks like you have a real gift for finding interesting people.
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=17951&p=203962#p203943" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sorry that i care about my car. didn't know that just because i have a chl i should let people walk all over me and my property

Did not see that coming... And this viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26445&p=301111#p301111 I've seen enough I'll be now...

forgot i made that thread rofl

[hpcatx]

There was a related thread posted by some troll, masquerading as the other party involved in this parking lot incident. I searched but could not find it... was just interested in seeing the additional responses forum members made. Does anyone know what happened to it?

[The Annoyed Man]

1. My personal experience is that Texans on average treat the cars in the parking slots on either side of their own with a casual disregard for the other guy more than do Californians on average. Don't anybody get their undies in a twist, this may not apply to you personally. All I know is that my 2002 Pathfinder, which was pristine the day I left California in 2006, has gotten nicks, dings, and scratches all over its sides from Texas drivers.....marks that weren't there the day I left California. In 4 years in California it stayed nice looking. In 5 years in Texas, it looks like a well used car—none of which is my fault, and despite my best efforts to keep it clean and waxed. Oh well. I hate that, but there isn't much I can do about it. Even so, I refuse to be that careless myself about other peoples' stuff, just because others are slobs. I'm not going to start doing the wrong thing just because others won't do the right thing.

2. Exactly none of this is worth either pepper spraying or shooting someone over. Just know that when you're dealing with some poopy-face who is pretty unapologetic about trashing your car's paint job, you are also dealing with somebody who is probably willing to escalate the conversation into a confrontation. People are jerks. What are you going to do....shoot all of them? Of course not. If you're that concerned about your paint job, park further out where there aren't any other cars around you. If you, like me, have to park closer in for reasons of physical health, then just know that your car is going to get dinged up. I already have a plan because I'm going to put another 200,000 miles on it before I sell it (it currently has only 134,000 miles on it, so it is barely broken in). When my car's paint is in bad enough shape, I'm going to have the entire thing repainted in Rhino Liner. Then the trailer trash can do what they want with their car doors, and it will mess their own cars up worse than it will mine.

roff, you seem to have a distressing habit of either finding trouble, or having it find you. Either way, you need to change tactics cause yours suck and they don't seem to be working out for you. The successful self defense situation is the one in which you never had to even raise your voice, let alone put your hand on your gun or fire a couple of shots over the top of other guy's car as he speeds away.