Unlicensed Posession?

[mr.stuart]

Hi folks.I see many signs that state "unlicensed posession' of a handgun is prohibited,etc.Should we take this at face value?Are we licensed to enter if we have a CHL?Or does this refer to a peace officer's license,etc?

[propellerhead]

That just tells those who bring guns into that place without a license will face stiff penalties. If you have a CHL, you are licensed.

Welcome to TXCHL.

[mr.stuart]

[srothstein]

These signs do not apply to anyone who has a CHL. They are usually the signs provided by TABC to places that sell alcoholic beverages and do not get 51% of their income from on-premise sales.

As such, I am not sure they really mean anything. They do not apply to peace officers, or anyone who is legally carrying under the exemptions provided, like travelers. So basically, it is a warning to the criminals that unlawfully carrying is more of a crime (felony) than normal (misdemeanor).

[KRM45]

These signs do not apply to anyone who has a CHL. They are usually the signs provided by TABC to places that sell alcoholic beverages and do not get 51% of their income from on-premise sales.

As such, I am not sure they really mean anything. They do not apply to peace officers, or anyone who is legally carrying under the exemptions provided, like travelers. So basically, it is a warning to the criminals that unlawfully carrying is more of a crime (felony) than normal (misdemeanor).

I think these signs do apply to "traveling". Certainly you can't be traveling and then stop and carry your gun on your person into an establishment with one of these signs posted.

[KBCraig]

I think these signs do apply to "traveling". Certainly you can't be traveling and then stop and carry your gun on your person into an establishment with one of these signs posted.

When you stop, you can't carry a gun on your person, signs or no. When you stop, you're no longer traveling.

Mind you, I do prefer the (probably mythical) ruling attributed to Roy Bean: "If he's moving, he's traveling. If he's not moving, he ain't carrying. Case dismissed!"



Of course, legend has it that he fined a corpse for carrying a weapon... the fine being --oh, so coincidentally!-- exactly what was found in his pockets.

Kevin

[stash]

So then, do I understand correctly that unlicensed posession in a liquor store is a felony but a misdemeanor in a coffee shop?

[txinvestigator]

So then, do I understand correctly that unlicensed posession in a liquor store is a felony but a misdemeanor in a coffee shop?

Yep.

[KBCraig]

So then, do I understand correctly that unlicensed posession in a liquor store is a felony but a misdemeanor in a coffee shop?

Exactly.

[srothstein]

These signs do not apply to anyone who has a CHL. They are usually the signs provided by TABC to places that sell alcoholic beverages and do not get 51% of their income from on-premise sales.

As such, I am not sure they really mean anything. They do not apply to peace officers, or anyone who is legally carrying under the exemptions provided, like travelers. So basically, it is a warning to the criminals that unlawfully carrying is more of a crime (felony) than normal (misdemeanor).

I think these signs do apply to "traveling". Certainly you can't be traveling and then stop and carry your gun on your person into an establishment with one of these signs posted.

Sure you can. Think about how you have to stop for gas on the highway while on your trip. Court cases have so far all upheld that this is not a stop in the traveling and most gas stations are licensed premises and have these signs. You could carry while you walked in to pay and then resumed your trip.

[KRM45]

These signs do not apply to anyone who has a CHL. They are usually the signs provided by TABC to places that sell alcoholic beverages and do not get 51% of their income from on-premise sales.

As such, I am not sure they really mean anything. They do not apply to peace officers, or anyone who is legally carrying under the exemptions provided, like travelers. So basically, it is a warning to the criminals that unlawfully carrying is more of a crime (felony) than normal (misdemeanor).

I think these signs do apply to "traveling". Certainly you can't be traveling and then stop and carry your gun on your person into an establishment with one of these signs posted.

Sure you can. Think about how you have to stop for gas on the highway while on your trip. Court cases have so far all upheld that this is not a stop in the traveling and most gas stations are licensed premises and have these signs. You could carry while you walked in to pay and then resumed your trip.

You're entitled to that opinion, but I for one would not want to be the test case.

[txinvestigator]

These signs do not apply to anyone who has a CHL. They are usually the signs provided by TABC to places that sell alcoholic beverages and do not get 51% of their income from on-premise sales.

As such, I am not sure they really mean anything. They do not apply to peace officers, or anyone who is legally carrying under the exemptions provided, like travelers. So basically, it is a warning to the criminals that unlawfully carrying is more of a crime (felony) than normal (misdemeanor).

I think these signs do apply to "traveling". Certainly you can't be traveling and then stop and carry your gun on your person into an establishment with one of these signs posted.

Sure you can. Think about how you have to stop for gas on the highway while on your trip. Court cases have so far all upheld that this is not a stop in the traveling and most gas stations are licensed premises and have these signs. You could carry while you walked in to pay and then resumed your trip.

You're entitled to that opinion, but I for one would not want to be the test case.

since he is a LEO that trains LEOs, it is an INFORMED and educated opinion, one with which I agree.

[Renegade]

These signs do not apply to anyone who has a CHL. They are usually the signs provided by TABC to places that sell alcoholic beverages and do not get 51% of their income from on-premise sales.

As such, I am not sure they really mean anything. They do not apply to peace officers, or anyone who is legally carrying under the exemptions provided, like travelers. So basically, it is a warning to the criminals that unlawfully carrying is more of a crime (felony) than normal (misdemeanor).

I think these signs do apply to "traveling". Certainly you can't be traveling and then stop and carry your gun on your person into an establishment with one of these signs posted.

Sure you can. Think about how you have to stop for gas on the highway while on your trip. Court cases have so far all upheld that this is not a stop in the traveling and most gas stations are licensed premises and have these signs. You could carry while you walked in to pay and then resumed your trip.

+1

That is how I see it from the jury box.

[KRM45]

since he is a LEO that trains LEOs, it is an INFORMED and educated opinion, one with which I agree.

The way I read the Penal Code this would be a felony offense. That having been said, I freely admit to not being as well versed in the relevant case law as either of you.

Since those of us involved in this dicussion are licensed to carry on said premesis I won't belabor the point.

I am however interested in where you guys find the case law that you look at to see how the courts have interpreted the laws.

I just completed my 9th week (of 22) at the Police Academy, and while we have discussed many court cases, there are obviously many that we will not discuss.

[srothstein]

I generally use http://www.findlaw.com as one of my resources when looking for case law, but it is much better at federal cases than state. Lexus-Nexus has all of the state cases, going way back in time, but it is a subscription service and fairly expensive. Of course, I learned in high school how to use a law library for research, and it comes in handy when you have one available. Since I have done this research in the past, I don't have the cases handy offhand to refer you to.

I think the last Court of Criminal Appeals case was in the late 1890's or early 1900's, and their answer was to say a jury makes the decision. All of the other cases we refer to since then are examples of what a jury may have decided but they are not binding on any other jury. Based on that, I look at the law and how I would present it to a court.

In this case, as in most laws, the courts will look for what is a reasonable definition of traveling. I think we could all agree that a person who is driving along IH-10 from Houston to El Paso is traveling. Since this distance is more than most cars can go, we must presume that he will stop for gasoline at some point in time. Put yourself in the jury's place and ask yourself if you would still consider yourself on the way while you were stopped for gas. Most people say yes, thus they are still traveling while stopped. If you are still traveling while stopped for gas, you are still traveling while paying for the gas. Thus, you are covered under the traveling law when entering the gas station to pay, even if it is a licensed premise.

Now, if we assume that someone will say no, that you are not traveling, then we have to ask at what point the traveling stopped. Did it stop when the car ceased moving? Clearly, that could not be the intent of the law or you would not be covered when you were stopped by the officer for a ticket. All of a sudden, you are automatically unable to carry at all because you could not legally carry to load the car or unload it. Since we always start with the presumption that laws are intended to be useful, this interpretation is invalid. Thus, I come up with the conclusion that you can carry into the gas station while on the trip.

Now, I will admit that I sometimes take this further and ask the next question. If I leave my home to go to Dallas for a one week vacation, am I still traveling while I am in the Dallas area? This is the point that has caused so much confusion on the stopped while traveling issue. I can see arguments on both sides of this issue, though I tend to think of myself as still traveling while still on a trip.

And, KRM45, I have to agree with you on one thing. I am not a lawyer and my advice is not legal advice, just a friendly discussion. I could be wrong as easily as I could be right. I never recommend anyone be the test case on any controversial point of law. One of the first things I elanred as a cop is that right and wrong have no bearing on how a court case will go. It is always a crap shoot once the case gets to the jury and no one will ever be able to accurately predict every time what a jury will do.