Any other "preppers"?

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zero4o3
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#76

Post by zero4o3 »

mamabearCali wrote:
bnc wrote:So with your house full of canned food, MREs, clean water, generators, and crank radios, what do you do when the authorities come by the clear the neighborhood?
Depends on the situation. If it is a Cat 5 hurricane---and that would be AMAZING considering I live 150 miles inland---, or a forest fire, or a rising flood (another amazing feat considering where we live). We grab the kids, bug out bags, computer tower, wedding albums, throw it all in our 12 passenger van and head out of harms way but preferably not on the major roads. I am not dying for my cans of beans. These are short term plagues and are acute not chronic conditions.

If it is a chronic condition, such as a financial melt down then I doubt anyone will come around to clear out neighborhoods. If they did they would just be laughed at.
one thing I would point out, if you have an extra few minutes, its probably worthwhile to just pull the hard drive out of your computer it reduces the amount of space wasted 100 fold and because a lot less likely to be stolen then an entire computer.

I have found this thread fairly informative, I have always wanted to get myself to a point where I could be ready for some kind of natural disater / ect.. but so far have not been able to stockpile more then just ammo :???:
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#77

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chasfm11 wrote:I find the story of the tornado shelter from a previous post interesting. Having read "Last Light" and "One Second After", I have a real dilemma about how to deal with a sudden group of "friends".....
I'll have to read "Last Light." Another novel which briefly touches on the Christian way of handling these things is "PATRIOTS, a novel of surviving in the coming collapse."

Regarding sudden "friends," I get the following from people who, knowing about my gun collection, will say something along the lines of "I'm coming over to your house when the manure hits the fan!" I first heard it from my neighbor across the street. And more recently, I've started hearing it from friends at church. I used to just grin and shrug it off. But more recently, I've started having a more visceral reaction. I've told them, "no, it is not my responsibility to be your armory. If you think you're going to possibly need to protect yourself in the future, then you need to take actions to do so now, while you can." I actually get a little angry at it—the presumption by some that they don't need to prepare for whatever because they know that others have.

I want to tell them, "if you enter in under my protection, then you will be my unquestioning slave, because I can't protect you and work on my own survival. Therefore, you will work for both of our survivals, while I work on our protection. You will take your orders from me, and you will obey them without question. This won't be a democracy. If you don't like that, it's my way or the highway. On the other hand, if you act today, while you can, to ensure your own protection, then we can be allies instead of master/overseer, and you can retain some sovereignty over your lives. Now, wouldn't that be the better alternative?" My neighbor has even expressed the desire to have just one pistol in his home (his wife has an irrational fear), and I have offered to help him shop for one and pick out whatever gun will best serve his interest. But he continues to say—as if this is OK with me—that he'll just come over and borrow one if he needs one..........like I would actually loan him one.

I have found that preparation for surviving whatever is coming (tornado, Ragnarok, zombie apocalypse, hurricane) is fairly expensive, particularly if you are living on a somewhat limited budget like I am currently, and it requires a specific and dedicated commitment to actually implementing it. It is also difficult to make wise decisions, as there are differing schools of thought on how to prioritize. In fact, threads like this are very helpful because they help people like me to learn from the actual experiences of other people.

And here is something else: preparing means having plans in place with other like-minded people for mutual support. A group of families can actually work better, smarter, and more efficiently to survive than a single family can. One of my regrets so far is that, even though I've lived here in Texas for 5-1/2 years now, I actually still don't know very many people with whom I am also close. My own family consists of my wife, my son, and me. Just the three of us. My extended family consists of my son's fiancé's family, whom we're just beginning to get to know. However, we know them well enough to know that they are nascent preppers. I have a few friends from church. I know a lot of people. I'm friends with only a few.

My real extended family all live back in California, and they are a write-off when it comes to survival—a thing which saddens me. I love my brothers, and I wish they gave due consideration to these things. They don't. My mother is 87 years old, and despite having survived great deprivation during the Nazi occupation as a young woman, she gives no thought to what she would have to do to survive again. She is a believer in a nanny state, and she is quite comfortable. In fact, I suspect that (like a lot of very elderly people who have lived through what she lived through) she would actually welcome death.

Personally, prepping is a struggle for me. There are the financial considerations, but there are also the considerations of limited energy to devote to it, and a sense that in some ways doing this now, at my current age and station in life, is almost more than I can handle. I really wish that I had started all of this at a younger age, and my advice to others is to do this while you are young enough to A) have the energy for it; and B) have the optimism for it. In other thread, someone quoted Dave Ramsey, saying "live like nobody else today so that you can live like nobody else tomorrow," or words to that effect. The fable of the ant and the grasshopper is quite valid. It takes some sacrifice to prepare well, and that sacrifice is easier to make when you are younger and more energetic than it is later in life when you are more infirm.

And speaking of infirm, in the event of a complete and long term social collapse, there are a lot of people like me who are going to probably die much younger than we would otherwise simply because we are dependent upon medications to sustain life. Diabetics are an obvious example. In my own case, there are five medications on which I depend. Two of those can be probably dispensed with as my weight comes down and my diet changes, those are blood pressure meds. One of the meds can probably be dispensed with by replacing it with something naturally grown, and that is pain control because of my back. But, the other two are a real problem. I no longer have a functioning thyroid gland, and I am dependent upon a daily thyroid supplement (which contributes to the difficulty of weight loss). There is no homeopathic alternative of which I am aware. Without a thyroid supplement, I will get sicker and sicker, and I will die much sooner, likely of heart disease. The other medication is intended to prevent an enlarged prostate. Without it, I am subject to crippling urinary tract infections, which in turn require pretty stiff doses of Cipro to knock them down. In fact, without antibiotic treatment, a UTI can easily become systemic and degenerate into sepsis, which is almost universally and rapidly fatal. Consequently, much of my preparation mindset is to ensure the survival of my loved ones, because I take it as a given that people like me will die off much sooner. I'm OK with my own demise because I know my King, but would like to see my loved ones' survival ensured before I pass, and so my long term strategy is being structured in that way.

My mother's health is beginning to fail now, and she has a pretty substantial estate. I love her and want her to live as long as possible, but she's 87 now and her physical capacities are diminishing at an accelerating rate. I would be surprised if she is still alive 5 years from now. When she passes, I will be using my share of her estate to buy a sufficiently large enough piece of property on which to survive.

I'll be looking for a piece of piece of property in the 100-200 acre range, geographical area still to be determined, but within a short day's drive of the DFW metroplex, with an existing home and barn in decent condition, and either a water supply flowing through it, or a well, or preferably both. I will install a windmill and power storage system. I want to be able to disconnect from the grid when necessary, and sell power back to the grid while a grid still exists. I want a smallish portion of the acreage to be arable and capable of growing a variety of produce, in enough volume to contribute to the support of my immediate family and perhaps a few other people. Any interim surplus would be sold back to the local community in farmers' markets. I want a portion of the acreage devoted to pasture, and we have been talking about raising goats—both as a source of meat and dairy, not to mention wool. I would like a small orchard, perhaps pecans or some other useful type of nut. I want the lay of the land to be naturally defensible if at all possible. If that is not possible, then I would like the larger community to be geographically defensible. There are other things on the wish list, but that gives an idea. Basically, I want to become mostly self-sufficient, but I also I want to become cooperatively plugged into a local rural community to obtain that which I cannot provide for myself by bartering my surplus. And I want that community to have a mindset of mutual support. I personally believe that in the event of a complete collapse, this is the model that will best ensure survival, both for my wife and me, and for my son and his family (when that happens).

It's a large order to fill, and it is mostly a pipe-dream at the moment, entirely dependent on funds that I do not currently have. God willing, I'll be able to successfully complete it, and if I can complete it, I will retire to this property so that I won't have to try to escape to it. I will keep my house in the city in Grapevine and either rent it out as an income property or give it to my son's family to live in until it's time to go. If necessary, I'll sell it to help fund my plans. If I can get my goals accomplished, then I can die satisfied that I have done the best I can for my family. Also, god-willing, none of these preparations will ever become necessary for survival. Even if they don't become necessary, I believe that I will have given my family a gift by completely changing their future into one of greater independence, closer community, and room to breath.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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chasfm11
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#78

Post by chasfm11 »

TAM, I appreciate your thinking on this subject. We share thoughts in some areas and differ in others. It would be great to have a time to sit down in person and share some of the material that I've collected on this subject with you. I have at least two presentations and my overall personal plan that I would willingly share.

Overall, I think of prepping in much the way that I do self defense.
- I've resigned myself to the fact that I will never be able to respond to some situations. I lack the training and experience in SD and will be at the wrong place at the wrong time from a prepping situation.
- that said, there are many small things that I can do to improve my odds in both topics. I have created similar analysis (types of threats, possible responses and what it would take to get to the point of being able to respond in each case.)
- I think of improvement in "layers" For prepping, handling the more common situations better is my first goal. Longer term survival and options is a second layer. For SD, the layers revolve around specific types of skills. For example, I'm not a good weak shooter so that layer would contain drills and practice for incapacitation of my strong hand.
- Like several others in the emergency planning group that I've met with, I'm reaching out to my immediate neighborhood. I have a strategy for trying to get my neighbors more involved. However misguided my thought process might seem, I think of it as a Renaissance toward both self-sufficiency at a personal level and greater involvement with my immediate community for mutual benefit. I mean to at least give it a try.

Chas.
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chasfm11
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#79

Post by chasfm11 »

george wrote: The one huge problem I have, is gasoline storage. My generator won't go long when the gas is gone, and I refuse to keep more than a couple of gallons around. I don't mind keeping reloading stuff, but my impression is that gasoline is much more dangerous. Also, it goes stale.

Are you guys just planning on going without gasoline, or am I missing something? Diesel? Propane? Solar panels?

Glad I am no longer living a couple of miles of millions of crazy people (present company excepted, of course) if things do continue to degrade.
Most of the answer to your question about gasoline revolves around how long you are planning for and what kind of a replenishment cycle you are thinking about. I make a practice of keeping both vehicle gas tanks full or as close to full as possible. I have 20 gallons of gas in containers, use Sta-bil in those containers and rotate them for use in my many engines. I cut a fair amount of wood with a chainsaw during the Fall and winter and also run a chipper/shredder. During the summer, our 60" cut tractor goes through a fair amount gas. I run the generator itself monthly because generators will last longer if they are exercised regularly. In addition to the engine, the coils build up moisture through lack of use. The gas containers don't sit unused for too long. If it looked like I was getting close to 6 months of the gas being in the containers, I'd dump them back into a vehicle and go refresh them. In an emergency, I'd divert all of that to the generator and have a plan to use that power even in the winter to run the furnace blower. My goal is to be able to generate enough electricity to last a week without resupply.

There are safe-store gas cans along with cabinets to put them in to deal with the safety issue.

Edit: to correct clumsy wording.
Last edited by chasfm11 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#80

Post by The Annoyed Man »

George, I have a 6000 watt (7000 peak) Champion power generator (LINK). When I have gotten my setup complete, I will use chasfm11's approach to gas storage. Once I have gotten my rural property set up with windmill generation and deep storage batteries, then I don't really have to store a large volume of gasoline, and using stabilizers, can extend the shelf life. Also, budget permitting, a conversion over to diesel powered vehicles would make the problem of fuel storage for vehicles much simpler.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

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OldCannon
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#81

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The Annoyed Man wrote: And speaking of infirm, in the event of a complete and long term social collapse, there are a lot of people like me who are going to probably die much younger than we would otherwise simply because we are dependent upon medications to sustain life. Diabetics are an obvious example. In my own case, there are five medications on which I depend. Two of those can be probably dispensed with as my weight comes down and my diet changes, those are blood pressure meds. One of the meds can probably be dispensed with by replacing it with something naturally grown, and that is pain control because of my back. But, the other two are a real problem. I no longer have a functioning thyroid gland, and I am dependent upon a daily thyroid supplement (which contributes to the difficulty of weight loss). There is no homeopathic alternative of which I am aware. Without a thyroid supplement, I will get sicker and sicker, and I will die much sooner, likely of heart disease. The other medication is intended to prevent an enlarged prostate. Without it, I am subject to crippling urinary tract infections, which in turn require pretty stiff doses of Cipro to knock them down. In fact, without antibiotic treatment, a UTI can easily become systemic and degenerate into sepsis, which is almost universally and rapidly fatal. Consequently, much of my preparation mindset is to ensure the survival of my loved ones, because I take it as a given that people like me will die off much sooner. I'm OK with my own demise because I know my King, but would like to see my loved ones' survival ensured before I pass, and so my long term strategy is being structured in that way.
I'm down with you on this, TAM. I'm a disabled vet for a reason, and part of that reason has to do with me needing to take very expensive pills three times a day, otherwise, without massive sources of drinkable water, I would die within 12-24 hours. I'm like the anti Green Lantern :cryin .

This means that I understand my chief responsibility it to get my family relocated and settled in for long term sustainability withing a 30-60 day window while I have my meds (optimistically assuming I can retrieve my meds). Not an easy thing to deal with, mentally, but it certainly helps me frame where my energy and effort need to go.

I, too, wish to get a nice slice of land, but I must bide my time for the right location and monetary resources. I'm beginning to think, however, that it's wiser to find land that adjoins like-minded people. Not an easy task, but this is a journey, not a destination, and I find that a patient approach yields me more satisfaction (at least now ;-) )
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bnc
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#82

Post by bnc »

TAM, your retirement dream sounds really nice, I'd like something similar and I bet many of us were would. You mentioned a wind mill, which I like quite a bit, and would recommend looking into localized solar equipment as well. It is not like we have a shortage of sunlight, after all.

Whether someone is already well along the way to self-reliance or completely new to the idea, I highly recommend taking a look at http://www.chrismartenson.com/. There is a lot of good information on what to do and why, so it is useful for those looking to take the next step as well as those who are in denial about what will likely happen in the future.

One thing Martenson gives a lot of attention to is not just building supplies or even skills, but building a like minded community that can work together. he gives first hand experience on how to make the transition from the typical lifestyle to a self-reliant one.

Here are a couple of first hand accounts of survival, well worth the read:

An account of a man surviving in siege-like conditions during the war in Bosnia in the 1990s: http://www.tacticalintelligence.net/blo ... ccount.htm

Well known blogger "FERFAL" survived the Argentine economic collapse of a decade ago, here is his blog and you can find him all over the net: http://ferfal.blogspot.com/



George, do you have first hand experience with the LDS canning facilities? I've looked into them a bit but have not gone to one yet. The LDS church also produces some good literature on preparedness covering the various aspects of life. I haven't read much of it, but I would expect the literature to contain significant religious references, fyi.

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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#83

Post by Tallinthesaddle »

"The Annoyed Man wrote:And speaking of infirm, in the event of a complete and long term social collapse, there are a lot of people like me who are going to probably die much younger than we would otherwise simply because we are dependent upon medications to sustain life. Diabetics are an obvious example. In my own case, there are five medications on which I depend. Two of those can be probably dispensed with as my weight comes down and my diet changes, those are blood pressure meds. One of the meds can probably be dispensed with by replacing it with something naturally grown, and that is pain control because of my back. But, the other two are a real problem. I no longer have a functioning thyroid gland, and I am dependent upon a daily thyroid supplement (which contributes to the difficulty of weight loss). There is no homeopathic alternative of which I am aware. Without a thyroid supplement, I will get sicker and sicker, and I will die much sooner, likely of heart disease. The other medication is intended to prevent an enlarged prostate. Without it, I am subject to crippling urinary tract infections, which in turn require pretty stiff doses of Cipro to knock them down. In fact, without antibiotic treatment, a UTI can easily become systemic and degenerate into sepsis, which is almost universally and rapidly fatal. Consequently, much of my preparation mindset is to ensure the survival of my loved ones, because I take it as a given that people like me will die off much sooner. I'm OK with my own demise because I know my King, but would like to see my loved ones' survival ensured before I pass, and so my long term strategy is being structured in that way."

Thanks for presenting this concern AM.
This is a big factor for me. After losing 60 lbs. over the years, I am now on maintenance medications and stomach medicine. Two days without
the HD antiacid medicine I take means the survival food I can put back I might not to be able to stomach. That is what you call a vicious circle.
So, put back all the meds I can and tough it out. Until I run out.

How about the women and the anti-depressents they take? What happens when they run out? I know four female family members nearby who would be either hell on wheels or closed up in a corner crying. How bad can that get? Too bad for sure.

Pray for sure for the right answer.

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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#84

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EMP vs. a motorcycle. I have read several stories about the effect of an EMP on a late model car/truck. How about a motorcycle? Especially a kick start only dirt bike/off road bike? I could get in the market for one of those.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#85

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Tallinthesaddle wrote:EMP vs. a motorcycle. I have read several stories about the effect of an EMP on a late model car/truck. How about a motorcycle? Especially a kick start only dirt bike/off road bike? I could get in the market for one of those.
It's not just the starter mechanism. If it has digital ignition instead of a mechanical distributor, it will be fried. Anything with a motherboard will be fried. It would have to be pretty much a pre-1980's vintage motorcycle to be EMP-proof. My brother's old 1982 R100RS BMW had digital ignition, on a two cylinder pushrod motor. And for sure any bike that has fuel injection will have an engine management computer that would be fried by an EMP.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

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chasfm11
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#86

Post by chasfm11 »

Tallinthesaddle wrote: Thanks for presenting this concern AM.
This is a big factor for me. After losing 60 lbs. over the years, I am now on maintenance medications and stomach medicine. Two days without
the HD antiacid medicine I take means the survival food I can put back I might not to be able to stomach. That is what you call a vicious circle.
So, put back all the meds I can and tough it out. Until I run out.

How about the women and the anti-depressents they take? What happens when they run out? I know four female family members nearby who would be either heck on wheels or closed up in a corner crying. How bad can that get? Too bad for sure.

Pray for sure for the right answer.

If the predictions are correct, an EMP would have a significant detrimental effect on most of the population of the countries where it reaches. There is work that has been going on for years to try to insulate electronics or to create circuits which are immune to EMP type explosions. Only the scientists involved in some of those experiments would know about the results.

"One Second After" presents a very sobering view of possibilities of life after regular medication supplies are gone. The main character in that story has a daughter who is a type 1 diabetic. It that type of scenario, divine intervention may be the only hope. Such stories underscore the need for leaders of the world to come together to avert mutual destruction. It is unlikely that those who feel that they could perpetrate such a disaster would be immune from its results.
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Scott in Houston
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#87

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Hadn't considered EMP's much in my planning, but that's an interesting point. The main thing it would affect for me would be flashlights and AIMpoints. <--- ugh. Yes, I co-witness, but would hate to lose the Aimpoint! :shock:
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#88

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Scott in Houston wrote:Hadn't considered EMP's much in my planning, but that's an interesting point. The main thing it would affect for me would be flashlights and AIMpoints. <--- ugh. Yes, I co-witness, but would hate to lose the Aimpoint! :shock:
I hadn't even thought of that....I have an EOTech, would probably fry too. Now that's a powerful argument for having an ACOG. Hmmmmm..... how to convince the wife? :headscratch
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OldCannon
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Re: Any other "preppers"?

#89

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In the list of scenarios you would have to deal with, EMP gets a lot of armchair survivalist talking, but is statistically in the "lightning strike's chance" of TEOTWAWKI scenarios. Far greater is the scenario of civil unrest being spread like wildfire by news media (i.e., London Riots), with a likely significant disruption to ERCOT, SPP, or other power grid that will cause urban exodous. To be honest, EMP scenarios aren't even on my list of "what to prepare for", because there's a whole host of other problems that are associated with it that would drain my time and resources away from more-likely situations.

My #1 challenge will be to get to a family enclave in central Texas (I have cousins far and wide over Texas, so it's the most-likely gathering place). I think worrying about my transportation being frazzed is way down on my list of worries. I'm much more concerned about availability of fuel, and my scenarios basically involve me planning on a one-shot trip to wherever I need to go. After that, I'll be looking for horses.
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