17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[baldeagle]

Do you have a link to the actual report?

Sorry. Should have included that. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/ ... Report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jmra]

Do you have a link to the actual report?

Sorry. Should have included that. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/ ... Report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, found it right after asking if you had it.
Some things I found interesting in the report:
1. Of the 8 people listed in the report, Zimmerman is the only one for which they did not list a weight. If they had obtained his height from his ID seems like they also would have listed his weight.
2. The first officer on the scene stated in the report that Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. Seems like the papers have tried to suggest that the blood was not his, but the officer's report refutes that assumption.
3. According to the report, Zimmerman was not questioned about the shooting at the scene. The officer did state that while Zimmerman was receiving first aide, for what now appears to have been a broken nose and a gash on the back of his head, he heard him say that "I was yelling for someone to help but no one would help me". I find the wording of this statement very significant. To me (and I may be reading too much into this) the statement "but no one would help me" suggests that someone was there who could have helped him. Perhaps this was our mystery witness who says Martin was on top beating Zimmerman when he left to call 911.
4. Everyone has been in an uproar from the beginning of this thing because Zimmerman was not "arrested". According to the police report he was cuffed, placed in the back of a police car, and taken to head quarters for questioning. I have never been arrested so I don't know what technically constitutes an arrest, but that sure sounds like one to me.
5. Maybe this information is not typically included in a police report, but I don't see in the report where anyone read Zimmerman his rights. Seems like the first officer would have done that while putting the cuffs on him. Again, I have no experience in this area so my assumption may be way off.

[drjoker]

It seems like the liberal newsmedia has lied again. The police report clearly states that zimmerman was HANDCUFFED and grilled at the police headquarters. THAT sounds like an arrest to me. Why are the kid's parents DEMANDING that Zimmerman be arrested if he's ALREADY been arrested?

I think that liberals are milking this with a race, anti-2nd A, and anti self defense angle.

[apostate]

4. Everyone has been in an uproar from the beginning of this thing because Zimmerman was not "arrested". According to the police report he was cuffed, placed in the back of a police car, and taken to head quarters for questioning. I have never been arrested so I don't know what technically constitutes an arrest, but that sure sounds like one to me.
5. Maybe this information is not typically included in a police report, but I don't see in the report where anyone read Zimmerman his rights. Seems like the first officer would have done that while putting the cuffs on him. Again, I have no experience in this area so my assumption may be way off.

IANAL but I believe there was no need for a Miranda warning. Officer Smith specifically says, "At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place."

Officer Smith states Investigator D. Singleton interviewed Zimmerman. Presumably a Miranda warning was given prior to that.

[koconcept]

Based on the police actions an d listening to the 911 tapes and finding out the guy on the tapes yelling help is zimmerman. I think he may have been defending himself. Following trayvon may have been initial aggressision but that doesn't justify violence on trayvons part. And zimmerman should have stayed in his car but he didn't and that makes him human. I think trayvon may have gotten a little irritated that zimmerman was following him and confronted zimmerman askin what where you doing zimmerman responds and trayvon attacks zimmerman. Eyewitnesses say zimmerman was on bottom getting beat up when the shot went off. Due to the size difference that leads me to think trayvon somehow got the jump on zimmerman. The police have the evidence and not all the eyewitnesses are going to the media for what is being deemed a child homicide by the media. Also the media always convicts the shooter even when they are clearly justified.

[Teamless]

All I can think is something I was told in my CHL class.

Do NOT ESCALATE the situation.

If I am in a situation, and I escalate the situation, by getting out of my car, by moving towards someone else, when I was not in danger, and my escalation caused the use of the gun, as I understand it, In Texas, I am guilty.
I am very confused at why Zimmerman has not been arrested.

[Beiruty]

All I can think is something I was told in my CHL class.

Do NOT ESCALATE the situation.

If I am in a situation, and I escalate the situation, by getting out of my car, by moving towards someone else, when I was not in danger, and my escalation caused the use of the gun, as I understand it, In Texas, I am guilty.
I am very confused at why Zimmerman has not been arrested.

Good thing we all learn that we have to descalate in any argument or confrontation. In nutshell, since we are armed with deadly weapon, we say somthing like "I have no business in arguing with you, please leave me alone. Have a gooday!", or in nusty words "Back off, get lost "

[A-R]

All I can think is something I was told in my CHL class.

Do NOT ESCALATE the situation.

If I am in a situation, and I escalate the situation, by getting out of my car, by moving towards someone else, when I was not in danger, and my escalation caused the use of the gun, as I understand it, In Texas, I am guilty.
I am very confused at why Zimmerman has not been arrested.

I generally agree with you and teach de-escalation to all my students, but law is not quite as black-n-white as you describe:

(b)  The use of force against another is not justified:
(1)  in response to verbal provocation alone;
... [sections removed for brevity] ...
(4)  if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless:
(A)  the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B)  the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor; or

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
... [removed for brevity] ...
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

[Beiruty]

Both Florida Law and TX law covers Someone who disengaged from an encounter and then the other party assaulted the CHLer who fearing for his life acted in self-defense. This is whey GZ was not arrested. Nothing wrong if the law says you are good. And, said law should be changed.

Maybe a law governing or licensing so call neighborhood watch personnel is where the law has to change.

[mamabearCali]

All I can think is something I was told in my CHL class.

Do NOT ESCALATE the situation.

If I am in a situation, and I escalate the situation, by getting out of my car, by moving towards someone else, when I was not in danger, and my escalation caused the use of the gun, as I understand it, In Texas, I am guilty.
I am very confused at why Zimmerman has not been arrested.

Perhaps he has not been arrested because he as far as we know did not commit a crime. Following someone to watch what they are up to is not a crime. I think it is foolish to do so on foot, but being stupid is not a crime either. Even the conversation relayed by the g/f of "why are you following me? What are you doing here?" has no evidence of a crime being committed there. In fact it shows that Mr. Martin escalated the confrontation. Martin could have kept walking home, or called the police himself--he had a phone. Instead it looks like (at least from the reports of the neighbor witness, and the injuries to Mr. Zimmerman) that Mr. Martin questioned then attacked Mr. Zimmerman. At which time Zimmerman was then justified in his self defense. Look fists are deadly weapons too! Hitting someone in the face with enough force to bloody the back of a head and break bones is not only stupid, but a crime. It appears from the witnesses statement that Mr Zimmerman even called for help and tried to not have to use his weapon. So I am not sure why he should be arrested.

As for telling someone to bug off as a deescalation tactic....and what happens when they don't move, but instead engage further. Had that exact thing happen to my DH and I. A guy went all road rage on us and we said go on get out of here (his car was blocking our RV so we could not leave) he would not go and threatened to get his "big TX gun." We called the cops and he took off like a shot, but sometimes deescalation does not work.

[A-R]

Maybe a law governing or licensing so call neighborhood watch personnel is where the law has to change.

Why? There is nothing inherently wrong with "Neighborhood Watch" - it's just a collection of well-meaning neighbors watching out for each other. The slights against NW in this whole story offend me almost as much as slights against concealed carry, stand your ground etc. Neighborhood Watch is NOT law enforcement, NOT even professional security. No licensing is needed. NW is no different than "dial 911 and be a good witness". You don't have to be part of NW to do so and NW gives you no special powers nor duties/obligations, and despite media claims there is also no enforceable law against being part of NW and carrying with CHL.

This is not the same as "Citizens On Patrol" and for all we know Zimmerman was just in his vehicle coming or going normally when he called 911.

I am on NW committee in my neighborhood. I have reported suspicious persons (usually door-to-door solicitors) to 911 while in my vehicle and carrying. Am I doing something wrong? NO! Because I volunteered for NW should I require yet another "license"? NO! Should I be prohibited from concealed carry because I voluntarily signed up for NW? NO!

Should I stay in my home or vehicle and avoid confronting suspicious persons? YES!

Am I legally required to stay inside? NO!

[Beiruty]

Maybe a law governing or licensing so call neighborhood watch personnel is where the law has to change.

Why? There is nothing inherently wrong with "Neighborhood Watch" - it's just a collection of well-meaning neighbors watching out for each other. The slights against NW in this whole story offend me almost as much as slights against concealed carry, stand your ground etc. Neighborhood Watch is NOT law enforcement, NOT even professional security. No licensing is needed. NW is no different than "dial 911 and be a good witness". You don't have to be part of NW to do so and NW gives you no special powers nor duties/obligations, and despite media claims there is also no enforceable law against being part of NW and carrying with CHL.

This is not the same as "Citizens On Patrol" and for all we know Zimmerman was just in his vehicle coming or going normally when he called 911.

I am on NW committee in my neighborhood. I have reported suspicious persons (usually door-to-door solicitors) to 911 while in my vehicle and carrying. Am I doing something wrong? NO! Because I volunteered for NW should I require yet another "license"? NO! Should I be prohibited from concealed carry because I voluntarily signed up for NW? NO!

Should I stay in my home or vehicle and avoid confronting suspicious persons? YES!



Am I legally required to stay inside? NO!

My comment is that NW should not dismount from cars, pursue subjects, question suspects or detain said suspects. It is common sense and maybe GZ did none of that and Mr. Martin, turned back and he was the one who initiated contact and assault.

[Keith B]

Should I stay in my home or vehicle and avoid confronting suspicious persons? YES!

Am I legally required to stay inside? NO!

This is the whole crux of any defense situation. If you are in your car, stay there unless staying means you are going to be potentially trapped. At the point you exit your car, you better be retreating instead of advancing on a threat (this assumes you are by yourself, and only looking to defend yourself and noone else.)

The advantage of staying the vehicle shows you were NOT threatening the subject, just observing, and if the subject does come up and try to remove you from the vehicle, you have that part of the Castle Doctrine to aid in your defense.

[A-R]

Should I stay in my home or vehicle and avoid confronting suspicious persons? YES!

Am I legally required to stay inside? NO!

This is the whole crux of any defense situation. If you are in your car, stay there unless staying means you are going to be potentially trapped. At the point you exit your car, you better be retreating instead of advancing on a threat (this assumes you are by yourself, and only looking to defend yourself and noone else.)

The advantage of staying the vehicle shows you were NOT threatening the subject, just observing, and if the subject does come up and try to remove you from the vehicle, you have that part of the Castle Doctrine to aid in your defense.

KeithB and Beriuty I completely agree with both of you on best course of action.

My complaint is about whether this best advice should be somehow regulated either by licensing NW or making some law about never pursuing a suspicious person or whatever.

Best practices and the law are not necessarily the same. All I'm saying.

[Keith B]

I never clarified my stance on that part. I don't believe the there should be a law like that. If you are part of a neighborhood watch, I do not disagree if while performing 'official patrols' the rules state you can't have a weapon (as they do today), but don't want to see anything like that in the law. It could be twisted so that if I sign up for a NW program, that I would not be allowed to have a gun on me in my neighborhood. Not something I would want.