AISD signs

[Keith B]

Case law and Texas Attorney General opinion show that an ISD IS a governmental entity in the fact they are subject to the Open Records Act. See http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of- ... 38398.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kyle Brown, you asked for case law, I gave it. See above. Texas ISD's are governmental entities per the Texas Court of Appeals. Search trhe document and you will find the phrase 'A governmental entity like Arlington ISD' in the ruling.

[RPB]

The Texas Education Code (TEC) indentifies and defines seveal types of public "school districts". For instance, the TEC identifies and defines Municipal School Districts, Common School Districts, Military Reservation School Districts, Independent School Districts, and Consolidated School Districts. Furthermore, the TEC specifies that the Texas Education AGENCY (TEA) shall serve as the only state AGENCY regulating ALL pubic schools and public school districts within the State Of Texas. In addition, the TEC clearly provides for the establishment and dissolution of ISDs,

The TEC is full of references in regard to defining specific types of school districts, and how they are totally different with regard to how they are formed/dissolved, how they are regulated, and who regulates them ...

1) Texas Education Code = State Law
2) State Law thusly defines and controls the creation of all types school districts
3) TEC mandates that all State School Districts be regulated by the State Agency, TEA, the Texas Education AGENCY, a State Agency

About TEA

The Texas Education Agency (TEA) is the administrative unit for primary and secondary public education. Agency responsibilities include:

managing the textbook adoption process;
overseeing development of the statewide curriculum;
administering the statewide assessment program;
administering a data collection system on public school students, staff, and finances;
rating school districts under the statewide accountability system;
operating research and information programs;
monitoring for compliance with federal guidelines; and
serving as a fiscal agent for the distribution of state and federal funds.

The TEA operational costs are supported by both state and federal funds.
http://www.tea.state.tx.us/index2.aspx?id=3793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Parent, the State is responsible for the birth and creation of all school districts through TEC... The Parent, State regulates, exercizes controlling authority over (parenting skills?) and parenting(regulation) through TEA
It looks like a duck, walks like a duck ... It's parent quacks and it follows the quack
It's a duck

So, an ISD IS a governmental entity.
Because it's a chip off the old block, and the nuts can't fall far from the tree or something
Q.E.D-quod erat demonstrandum
It's a duck.

[Kyle Brown]

Case law and Texas Attorney General opinion show that an ISD IS a governmental entity in the fact they are subject to the Open Records Act. See http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of- ... 38398.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kyle Brown, you asked for case law, I gave it. See above. Texas ISD's are governmental entities per the Texas Court of Appeals. Search trhe document and you will find the phrase 'A governmental entity like Arlington ISD' in the ruling.

Actually, I never asked for case law. You and several others cosistently quoted it in an attempt to support your position. I clearly asked for statutory support of your position. There is none. So, we should conclude that, in the absence of statutory clarification, the need for case law increases proportionately. Legislators have the ability / auhority to create statutory law that would define an ISD as a government entity, but they have not. In fact, if you actually read the TEC you will not be able to aviod seeing repeated instances where the legislators went to great lengths to preserve the independent status of ISD to the extent they did not declare them 'government entities'.

[jimlongley]

LOL...all I can say in response is you have made a very broad statement. If I understand you correctly, you have determined that a 'school district' is a 'government agency' REGARDLESS of how it was formed, how it is regulated, or by whom...very broad and (in my opinion) totally unsupportable. The TEC is full of references in regard to defining specific types of school districts, and how they are totally different with regard to how they are formed/dissolved, how they are regulated, and who regulates them. Have you actually read any part of the TEC???

It appears to me that the statute specifically states that a school district is a government agency, no need to read anything else, there it is in black letter law. Yup, it's a broad statement, it's a broad law "(4) "Governmental agency" means a municipality, county, school district, conservation and reclamation district, hospital organization, or other political subdivision of this state."

And yet, you deny that the statute exists, even after it's posted for you.

[Kyle Brown]

LOL...all I can say in response is you have made a very broad statement. If I understand you correctly, you have determined that a 'school district' is a 'government agency' REGARDLESS of how it was formed, how it is regulated, or by whom...very broad and (in my opinion) totally unsupportable. The TEC is full of references in regard to defining specific types of school districts, and how they are totally different with regard to how they are formed/dissolved, how they are regulated, and who regulates them. Have you actually read any part of the TEC???

It appears to me that the statute specifically states that a school district is a government agency, no need to read anything else, there it is in black letter law. Yup, it's a broad statement, it's a broad law "(4) "Governmental agency" means a municipality, county, school district, conservation and reclamation district, hospital organization, or other political subdivision of this state."

And yet, you deny that the statute exists, even after it's posted for you.

No, I don't deny that it exists. I do believe that to understand the definition of a 'school district' you must reference the TEC. In doing so, you will see defined several unique school districts. So, in the statute you referenced, it probably (I have not researched it) is addressing those school districts that could be considered a 'government agency' such as a municipal school district since the municipality actually owns the real and personal property used/accessed by the municipal school district. I can say with reasonable certainty that the statute you referenced does not define a school district. In fact, I am positive that it does not define a school district.

[Keith B]

Case law and Texas Attorney General opinion show that an ISD IS a governmental entity in the fact they are subject to the Open Records Act. See http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of- ... 38398.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kyle Brown, you asked for case law, I gave it. See above. Texas ISD's are governmental entities per the Texas Court of Appeals. Search trhe document and you will find the phrase 'A governmental entity like Arlington ISD' in the ruling.

Actually, I never asked for case law. You and several others cosistently quoted it in an attempt to support your position. I clearly asked for statutory support of your position. There is none. So, we should conclude that, in the absence of statutory clarification, the need for case law increases proportionately. Legislators have the ability / auhority to create statutory law that would define an ISD as a government entity, but they have not. In fact, if you actually read the TEC you will not be able to aviod seeing repeated instances where the legislators went to great lengths to preserve the independent status of ISD to the extent they did not declare them 'government entities'.

The case law sets precidence that an ISD is a governmental entity. That is all that would be needed in a court of law. End of discussion from me because you apparently have your mind set and will not be swayed.

[jimlongley]

LOL...all I can say in response is you have made a very broad statement. If I understand you correctly, you have determined that a 'school district' is a 'government agency' REGARDLESS of how it was formed, how it is regulated, or by whom...very broad and (in my opinion) totally unsupportable. The TEC is full of references in regard to defining specific types of school districts, and how they are totally different with regard to how they are formed/dissolved, how they are regulated, and who regulates them. Have you actually read any part of the TEC???

It appears to me that the statute specifically states that a school district is a government agency, no need to read anything else, there it is in black letter law. Yup, it's a broad statement, it's a broad law "(4) "Governmental agency" means a municipality, county, school district, conservation and reclamation district, hospital organization, or other political subdivision of this state."

And yet, you deny that the statute exists, even after it's posted for you.

No, I don't deny that it exists. I do believe that to understand the definition of a 'school district' you must reference the TEC. In doing so, you will see defined several unique school districts. So, in the statute you referenced, it probably (I have not researched it) is addressing those school districts that could be considered a 'government agency' such as a municipal school district since the municipality actually owns the real and personal property used/accessed by the municipal school district. I can say with reasonable certainty that the statute you referenced does not define a school district. In fact, I am positive that it does not define a school district.

Yes, you did deny it, in the previous post, but above that, it says "school district" not "school district with exceptions" just "school district" and that makes all of them, particularly when combined with AG opinion and case law, the same thing under the law.

[Kyle Brown]

Case law and Texas Attorney General opinion show that an ISD IS a governmental entity in the fact they are subject to the Open Records Act. See http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of- ... 38398.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kyle Brown, you asked for case law, I gave it. See above. Texas ISD's are governmental entities per the Texas Court of Appeals. Search trhe document and you will find the phrase 'A governmental entity like Arlington ISD' in the ruling.

Actually, I never asked for case law. You and several others cosistently quoted it in an attempt to support your position. I clearly asked for statutory support of your position. There is none. So, we should conclude that, in the absence of statutory clarification, the need for case law increases proportionately. Legislators have the ability / auhority to create statutory law that would define an ISD as a government entity, but they have not. In fact, if you actually read the TEC you will not be able to aviod seeing repeated instances where the legislators went to great lengths to preserve the independent status of ISD to the extent they did not declare them 'government entities'.

The case law sets precidence that an ISD is a governmental entity. That is all that would be needed in a court of law. End of discussion from me because you apparently have your mind set and will not be swayed.

Let's see, you feel I have my mind set and will not be swayed. Interesting, from my POV, I see the exact same thing where you and others are concerned. I cannot get any of you to read the TEC and make an attempt to understand the real property issue I outlined. No, for you, and others, your minds are made up and the statutory law to the devil; you will not be swayed.

It is really interesting to watch; you all will quickly run to a statute and cut and paste it IF and ONLY IF it supports your position. Regardless, you are right; I will not be swayed. I really could not care less if you opt to end the 'discussion' because there really has not been a discussion. What has really happend here is very simple. I posted my position and supported it with statutory law. You on the other hand post a link to the Arlington ISD appeals case in which the Arlington ISD was sued under the Freedom of Information Act; subsequently sought immunity rightfully afforded them to be free from suit and thereby declared themselves a 'government entity'. The court had no choice than to refer to them (one time within the body of the opinion) as a government entity BECAUSE a WRITTEN RULE allowed them to to so. But, that is all you need, you are now satisfied that ALL school districts are government entities.

[RPB]

LOL...all I can say in response is you have made a very broad statement. If I understand you correctly, you have determined that a 'school district' is a 'government agency' REGARDLESS of how it was formed, how it is regulated, or by whom...very broad and (in my opinion) totally unsupportable. The TEC is full of references in regard to defining specific types of school districts, and how they are totally different with regard to how they are formed/dissolved, how they are regulated, and who regulates them. Have you actually read any part of the TEC???

It appears to me that the statute specifically states that a school district is a government agency, no need to read anything else, there it is in black letter law. Yup, it's a broad statement, it's a broad law "(4) "Governmental agency" means a municipality, county, school district, conservation and reclamation district, hospital organization, or other political subdivision of this state."

And yet, you deny that the statute exists, even after it's posted for you.

No, I don't deny that it exists. I do believe that to understand the definition of a 'school district' you must reference the TEC. In doing so, you will see defined several unique school districts. So, in the statute you referenced, it probably (I have not researched it) is addressing those school districts that could be considered a 'government agency' such as a municipal school district since the municipality actually owns the real and personal property used/accessed by the municipal school district. I can say with reasonable certainty that the statute you referenced does not define a school district. In fact, I am positive that it does not define a school district.

Definition: School District

LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE

TITLE 8. ACQUISITION, SALE, OR LEASE OF PROPERTY

SUBTITLE C. ACQUISITION, SALE, OR LEASE PROVISIONS APPLYING TO MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT

CHAPTER 271. PURCHASING AND CONTRACTING AUTHORITY OF MUNICIPALITIES, COUNTIES, AND CERTAIN OTHER LOCAL GOVERNMENTS

SUBCHAPTER A. PUBLIC PROPERTY FINANCE ACT

Sec. 271.001. SHORT TITLE. This subchapter may be cited as the Public Property Finance Act.

Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 149, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1987.
Sec. 271.003. DEFINITIONS
(4) "Governmental agency" means a municipality, county, school district, conservation and reclamation district, hospital organization, or other political subdivision of this state.
...
(9) "School district" means an independent school district, common school district, community college district, junior college district, or regional college district organized under the laws of this state.

Now it's red letter law

[Keith B]

Definition: School District

LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE

TITLE 8. ACQUISITION, SALE, OR LEASE OF PROPERTY

SUBTITLE C. ACQUISITION, SALE, OR LEASE PROVISIONS APPLYING TO MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT

CHAPTER 271. PURCHASING AND CONTRACTING AUTHORITY OF MUNICIPALITIES, COUNTIES, AND CERTAIN OTHER LOCAL GOVERNMENTS

SUBCHAPTER A. PUBLIC PROPERTY FINANCE ACT

Sec. 271.001. SHORT TITLE. This subchapter may be cited as the Public Property Finance Act.

Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 149, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1987.
Sec. 271.003. DEFINITIONS
(4) "Governmental agency" means a municipality, county, school district, conservation and reclamation district, hospital organization, or other political subdivision of this state.
...
(9) "School district" means an independent school district, common school district, community college district, junior college district, or regional college district organized under the laws of this state.

Now it's red letter law

Good enough for me. I will still stay set in my mind too.

[Kyle Brown]

LOL...all I can say in response is you have made a very broad statement. If I understand you correctly, you have determined that a 'school district' is a 'government agency' REGARDLESS of how it was formed, how it is regulated, or by whom...very broad and (in my opinion) totally unsupportable. The TEC is full of references in regard to defining specific types of school districts, and how they are totally different with regard to how they are formed/dissolved, how they are regulated, and who regulates them. Have you actually read any part of the TEC???

It appears to me that the statute specifically states that a school district is a government agency, no need to read anything else, there it is in black letter law. Yup, it's a broad statement, it's a broad law "(4) "Governmental agency" means a municipality, county, school district, conservation and reclamation district, hospital organization, or other political subdivision of this state."

And yet, you deny that the statute exists, even after it's posted for you.

No, I don't deny that it exists. I do believe that to understand the definition of a 'school district' you must reference the TEC. In doing so, you will see defined several unique school districts. So, in the statute you referenced, it probably (I have not researched it) is addressing those school districts that could be considered a 'government agency' such as a municipal school district since the municipality actually owns the real and personal property used/accessed by the municipal school district. I can say with reasonable certainty that the statute you referenced does not define a school district. In fact, I am positive that it does not define a school district.

Definition: School District

LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE

TITLE 8. ACQUISITION, SALE, OR LEASE OF PROPERTY

SUBTITLE C. ACQUISITION, SALE, OR LEASE PROVISIONS APPLYING TO MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT

CHAPTER 271. PURCHASING AND CONTRACTING AUTHORITY OF MUNICIPALITIES, COUNTIES, AND CERTAIN OTHER LOCAL GOVERNMENTS

SUBCHAPTER A. PUBLIC PROPERTY FINANCE ACT

Sec. 271.001. SHORT TITLE. This subchapter may be cited as the Public Property Finance Act.

Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 149, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1987.
Sec. 271.003. DEFINITIONS
(4) "Governmental agency" means a municipality, county, school district, conservation and reclamation district, hospital organization, or other political subdivision of this state.
...
(9) "School district" means an independent school district, common school district, community college district, junior college district, or regional college district organized under the laws of this state.

Now it's red letter law

Seriously...??? Unless I misunderstand your intent, you are, by and through your cite, representing the definition of a school district provided in your cite absolutely defines school districts in all other parts of the Local Government Code, and any and all other definitions provided in the TEC. I'll be kind...do you prefer to correct your cite or would you rather I correct it for you...?

[RPB]

What better place to see if something is "government" than the government itself, as defined in the government code.
Since TEC Texas Education Code is also a code/codified set of Statutes, it is in no way superior to the >> Government Code.
Normally, If there is a conflict of laws (statutes/codes), case law would rule.
BUT IN FACT, notice that the School District Trustees regulated by TEA/TEC Texas EDUCATION CODE, is SUBJECT TO (not superior to) the Texas GOVERNMENT CODE which contains the definition sought and provided.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /ed.11.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sec. 11.0621. MEETINGS. The minutes, certified agenda, or recording, as applicable, of a regular or special meeting of the board of trustees must reflect each member's attendance at or absence from the meeting. The minutes or tape recording of an open meeting must be accessible to the public in accordance with Section 551.022, Government Code.

You asked for a definition, I provided it.
TEA is obviously a State Agency (Texas Education Agency) and school districts, which the Government Code states are Government Agencies, are subject to that State Agency.

And thus it is proved, Q.E.D., uod erat demonstrandum, clearer it could hardly be, though you may disagree, the Government itself claims that the school districts are government agencies, and subject to a government agency.....

The government itself, in the Codified Statutes, defines them as State Agencies ... if conflict, case law rules ... it's a duck

The Term in the Texas Education Code "a body corporate" regarding Trustees etc, IMHO implies as a body, rather than members individually, instead of implying a corporation as in a different sort of legal entity/proprietorship/ partnership corporation

Example:
1 Cor 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. (et seq)
is:

SUBCHAPTER C. BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT--GENERAL PROVISIONS

Sec. 11.051. GOVERNANCE OF INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT; NUMBER OF TRUSTEES. (a) An independent school district is governed by a board of trustees who, as a body corporate, shall:

(1) oversee the management of the district; and

(2) ensure that the superintendent implements and monitors plans, procedures, programs, and systems to achieve appropriate, clearly defined, and desired results in the major areas of district operations.

(a-1) Unless authorized by the board, a member of the board may not, individually, act on behalf of the board. The board of trustees may act only by majority vote of the members present at a meeting held in compliance with Chapter 551, Government Code, at which a quorum of the board is present and voting.

The Trustees may act only in compliance with the Government Code, they are subject to it, and the government code defines school district as a government agency
So, IMHO, "a body corporate" is not necessarily, though it can and may be, construed as creating a private corporation, or even a governmental incorporated entity, such as a municipality, depending on context.

[Kyle Brown]

What better place to see if something is "government" than the government itself, as defined in the government code.
Since TEC Texas Education Code is also a code/codified set of Statutes, it is in no way superior to the >> Government Code.
If there is a conflict of laws (statutes/codes), case law would rule.

You asked for a definition, I provided it.
TEA is obviously a State Agency (Texas Education Agency) and school districts, which the Government Code states are Government Agencies, are subject to that State Agency.

And thus it is proved, Q.E.D., uod erat demonstrandum, clearer it could hardly be, though you may disagree, the Government itself claims that the school districts are government agencies, and subject to a government agency.....

it's a duck

I have to admit, I am both surprised and disappointed. I expected more from someone who worked as a legal assistant/paralegal for 25+ years. Did you think that I would not catch your 'mistake'...? Since you refuse to correct it, I'll do it for you: "Sec. 271.003 Definitions. In this subchapter:"

I don't necessarily expect all others involved in this 'discussion' to completely understand the significance of the words you omitted, but unless you have completely misrepresented your legal background, I suspect you completely understand their significance. Otherwise, you would not have found it necessary to omit them.

[RPB]

As you are aware, Definitions in one code or statute are often utilized in another and as "Premises" is defined in two different ways in two different Statutes in the Penal Code, each place referring to "Premises" points to which of the two definitions it means.
TEC points to no alternate definition, but refers throughout, to the government code.
And you haven't shown anything in the Texas Education Code which negates the definition contained in the Texas Local Government Code, to which the Texas Education Code is subject.
You are welcome to try to show where the government says a school district is not part of the government
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /ed.11.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but I suspect you'll keep your position, and we'll keep ours anyway.
I do understand where corporate body as school districts incorporate could be thought of as non-govt, in the same way a city which incorporates is not a "State Agency" though it (a municipality) is preempted in some areas by State law with regard to what it can and can not regulate, therefore subject to the State. So both school districts and cities incorporate, and both are subject to State Law ...I mean I see your position/argument, though I disagree.

It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... and the Government itself says school districts are a State Agency

It's a duck.


Or, prove it isn't a duck (government agency) in contrast to/conflicting with the definition stating it is.
Education code,
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /ed.11.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simple logic:
What types of bodies are regulated by the Government code? Govt bodies
Open Meetings laws? Govt bodies
Does the Government Code regulate private corporations? no ...

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /ed.11.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Texas Education Code
Sec. 11.0621. MEETINGS. The minutes, certified agenda, or recording, as applicable, of a regular or special meeting of the board of trustees must reflect each member's attendance at or absence from the meeting. The minutes or tape recording of an open meeting must be accessible to the public in accordance with Section 551.022, Government Code.

Seriously, one must conclude that Government agencies are all that the government code regulates
TEA is regulated by the Govt code
School districts are regulated by the govt code and TEA which is subject to the education code and govt code
School districts meetings must comply with Govt code
School districts are regulated by the Govt code
Govt code can only control/regulate governmental bodies ...

As I said, I see where you could attempt to use "body corporate" and that definition and incorporating processs could be stretched to attempt to make a school board/trustees some private corporation not subject to the govt code ... it won't work.
Sure, perhaps its a non-profit corporation legal entity
http://www.academicadvocates.org/articl ... ration.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's a governmental agency, as the govt code so states and no definition elsewhere contradicts that, but the structure rather supports it being a governmental agency supported by taxes with elections and authority to assess and collect taxes etc etc..
IMHO, and you haven't shown anywhere that says it isn't ... It is still a State Agency.

I mean I do understand your position. There are attorneys who are members here, and one attorney in town goes broke, two with opposite positions make money, it appears they are wiser than I am, and remain silent ...I respect your right to your opinion though I disagree, because there is more/greater preponderance of evidence, and greater weight, that a school district is a State Agency, than that they aren't. So, neither of us are going to change opinions, and I don't believe any definition nullifies the one given, so I'll agree that we disagree.

The government itself defines School districts as State Agencies, and no where does the government state nor define a school district as not being a State Agency.

[puma guy]

I'm going to recommend to my friend on our school board every meeting be opened by having the members go "Quack, quack"