17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[Keith B]

Keith,

Per your post;

It is still best to call the cops first if you are in a shooting situation. Fading into the night would only make people think you were trying to hide something when they found you (and they WOULD find you.)

There are thousands of unsolved murders (6,000 is the most prevalent number I have seen) in the U.S. every year. Bernhard Goetz (the New York "Subway Vigilante") would probably not have been caught and would be a lot better off if he had not turned himself in. I am not advocating “fading into the night”, just pointing out that contrary to what we want to believe, some criminals doget away with their crimes.

Yes, there are times that that happens, but they are trying to get away with a crime (yes, shooting someone, then not reporting it IS a crime, whether in self defense or not). So, if you want to run from a crime, you MAY get away, but 99% chance there will be enough evidence you WILL get caught. I will bet you 99.999% of the people on this forum would have such a guilt trip they would turn themselves in anyway.

So, as many have said, the CHL is not a Batman license; don't go toward a possible problem; and if you do have to defend yourself, don't let your mouth ruin a good shoot.

Personally, if necessary, I would call 911 then do what I believe is necessary. I could not live with myself if I walked away or just stood and waited for the police while someone was stabbed to death. That would be the case even if I was not carrying at the time.

I didn't say you should never get involved. The thread is about Zimmerman, and he should NOT have gotten involved. He was NOT seeing a crime being committed where someones life was in danger. His life was not in danger (at least at first.) All he saw a suspicious person walking around. I believe he was overzealous and that got him into a situation that he ended up having to use his gun to get out of. Bad call on his part to start with.

If I am witnessing a crime in progress that has the potential to get another person severely injured or killed, I will get involved IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO. If it is not safe, then I may chose not to. Putting yourself out there willy-nilly without a plan is just asking to end up with two dead people instead of one, and you will be the second victim of the bad guy.

There is an old saying 'Fools rush in where angels fear to tread'; that goes a LONG way on making a decision to engage or not in a defensive situation.

[VoiceofReason]

I agree he was overzealous and got himself into a bad situation. Until all the facts are known, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he did not start out with malicious intent.

However this turns out though, my opinion of the media could not be lower.

[Heartland Patriot]

I agree he was overzealous and got himself into a bad situation. Until all the facts are known, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he did not start out with malicious intent.

However this turns out though, my opinion of the media could not be lower.

With that statement, 100%.

[terryg]

If I am witnessing a crime in progress that has the potential to get another person severely injured or killed, I will get involved IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO. If it is not safe, then I may chose not to. Putting yourself out there willy-nilly without a plan is just asking to end up with two dead people instead of one, and you will be the second victim of the bad guy.

Keith, I do agree with what you are saying here. I would just like to point out that if you are getting involved in the type of situation you are describing, it is pretty much impossible to do so and not create some level of risk for yourself. I think what you are saying is that you will have to make a judgement call and weigh the risk to yourself against your chances of making a positive impact to those being targeted - which is fine. But I can't think of a scenario where getting involved in a situation where someone might bet injured or killed that would be completely safe.

I know that may seem like just semantics at first. But I think it is important to recognize it for what it is ... some degree of limiting risk rather than completely avoiding risk.

[Keith B]

If I am witnessing a crime in progress that has the potential to get another person severely injured or killed, I will get involved IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO. If it is not safe, then I may chose not to. Putting yourself out there willy-nilly without a plan is just asking to end up with two dead people instead of one, and you will be the second victim of the bad guy.

Keith, I do agree with what you are saying here. I would just like to point out that if you are getting involved in the type of situation you are describing, it is pretty much impossible to do so and not create some level of risk for yourself. I think what you are saying is that you will have to make a judgement call and weigh the risk to yourself against your chances of making a positive impact to those being targeted - which is fine. But I can't think of a scenario where getting involved in a situation where someone might bet injured or killed that would be completely safe.

I know that may seem like just semantics at first. But I think it is important to recognize it for what it is ... some degree of limiting risk rather than completely avoiding risk.

To calrify, yes you are correct. There is risk with anything you do. There is also calculated risk, and that would be what you have to take into play. You have to determine the chances of you actually making the situation worse by entering into it (getting yourself killed as well as the other person, etc.) or making it better, and then make the decision on if you engage or just stay a witness.

[Dragonfighter]

To clarify, yes you are correct. There is risk with anything you do. There is also calculated risk, and that would be what you have to take into play. You have to determine the chances of you actually making the situation worse by entering into it (getting yourself killed as well as the other person, etc.) or making it better, and then make the decision on if you engage or just stay a witness.

Such things are always a continuum of analysis, action, change of circumstance, reanalyze, etc. All while maintaining SA and not getting yourself killed.

But in this case, as more and more becomes apparent, I am not sure GZ was THAT overzealous. What seems to be the case is he ( a NW person) sees someone in the neighborhood he doesn't recognize and in unusual context (night, raining, etc.) follows TM while on the phone to 911, loses sight and returns to his vehicle. He didn't pursue, he DID get out of the vehicle.

IMO, on the scale of stupid he ranks a 6 or 7. But as I have said before, thank God stupid isn't illegal or a lot of us would be in jail.

[VoiceofReason]

Keith,

I avoided the risk topic in my reply so as not to generate more controversy.

My post stated:

“Personally, if necessary, I would call 911 then do what I believe is necessary. I could not live with myself if I walked away or just stood and waited for the police while someone was stabbed to death. That would be the case even if I was not carrying at the time.”

.

I was stating what I would do Personally. I am not advocating others take that risk and do not fault others for not doing so. I have put my life at risk more times than I can count as a Volunteer Fireman and Deputy Sherriff to help others and to capture some of the parasitic scum that plagues society.

If I thought there was even a remote chance I could save the life of a woman or child I would risk my own life even if there was a 90% chance I would lose it. That is just who I am. I don’t want to be a hero and I do not care who would criticize me.

I had a close acquaintance ask me one day “why do you do it, why do you risk your life for no pay?”. My answer was “Bud, I could stand here all day and try to explain it to you and you still wouldn’t understand”. He was a nice guy but I knew he could not possibly comprehend taking such a risk with nothing to gain except the knowledge that you helped someone that was in bad trouble.

End of sermon.

[Dragonfighter]

I had a close acquaintance ask me one day “why do you do it, why do you risk your life for no pay?”. My answer was “Bud, I could stand here all day and try to explain it to you and you still wouldn’t understand”. He was a nice guy but I knew he could not possibly comprehend taking such a risk with nothing to gain except the knowledge that you helped someone that was in bad trouble.

End of sermon.

I volunteered for 3 years before I became a career firefighter (BTW, even paid it is not enough). In 25 years I have never been able to convey the reality that is emergency operations. I had one daughter ride out with me one shift on the MICU and she sort of gets it, but as badly as the wife tried to understand and begged for me to share she is often sympathetic and proud but it just cannot be conveyed. I was discussing this with a colleague one time and he responded, "It is truly surreal."

In the final analysis, sometimes the "calculated" in a calculated risk is grim. Yet we are compelled to act. At least my wife understands that aspect.

[philip964]

Our neighborhood Civic Association is a non profit corporation. It has a member of the board who is in charge of security.

For many years this person was John Kirby III, ( http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... d=81390189" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) a good ole boy, who would patrol the neighborhood at night in a police looking car with flashing lights. Before I lived in the neighborhood, he pulled me over at least twice. I am caucasian, don't wear hoddies was with my wife and I was in a nice car. My car was unfamiliar so, I got stopped until he remembered it, after that we would wave when he passed.

I always wondered if he was armed.

The current director of security now just hires a constable patrol.

I am sure a lot of neighborhood watch captains are rethinking their volunteer jobs today. Civic Association Boards are probably questioning whether their watch captains are armed. Insurance companies are probably asking questions about watch captains.

I am seeing very little positive out of this whole event.

[Keith B]

Keith,

I avoided the risk topic in my reply so as not to generate more controversy.

My post stated:

“Personally, if necessary, I would call 911 then do what I believe is necessary. I could not live with myself if I walked away or just stood and waited for the police while someone was stabbed to death. That would be the case even if I was not carrying at the time.”

.

I was stating what I would do Personally. I am not advocating others take that risk and do not fault others for not doing so. I have put my life at risk more times than I can count as a Volunteer Fireman and Deputy Sherriff to help others and to capture some of the parasitic scum that plagues society.

If I thought there was even a remote chance I could save the life of a woman or child I would risk my own life even if there was a 90% chance I would lose it. That is just who I am. I don’t want to be a hero and I do not care who would criticize me.

I had a close acquaintance ask me one day “why do you do it, why do you risk your life for no pay?”. My answer was “Bud, I could stand here all day and try to explain it to you and you still wouldn’t understand”. He was a nice guy but I knew he could not possibly comprehend taking such a risk with nothing to gain except the knowledge that you helped someone that was in bad trouble.

End of sermon.

You have had training to do what you did; the average CHL holder does not. So, unless you have had special training, then you have to go back to my original statement; a CHL is not a Batman license.....

[Beiruty]

The whole Neighborhood watch is none-sense. Those who have to patrol streets are LEOs, that is your Local PD patrolmen, your Sheriff or the Militia, period. If there is lack of patrol and LE, then call for the militia armed with full-auto, have them sworn as deputies, get then trained and educated as LEO. They are just volunteered LEOs.

Nevertheless, see something, do something, (call 911,or intervene if capable of doing so) still applies.

[Oldgringo]

Keith,

I avoided the risk topic in my reply so as not to generate more controversy.

My post stated:

“Personally, if necessary, I would call 911 then do what I believe is necessary. I could not live with myself if I walked away or just stood and waited for the police while someone was stabbed to death. That would be the case even if I was not carrying at the time.”

.

I was stating what I would do Personally. I am not advocating others take that risk and do not fault others for not doing so. I have put my life at risk more times than I can count as a Volunteer Fireman and Deputy Sherriff to help others and to capture some of the parasitic scum that plagues society.

If I thought there was even a remote chance I could save the life of a woman or child I would risk my own life even if there was a 90% chance I would lose it. That is just who I am. I don’t want to be a hero and I do not care who would criticize me.

I had a close acquaintance ask me one day “why do you do it, why do you risk your life for no pay?”. My answer was “Bud, I could stand here all day and try to explain it to you and you still wouldn’t understand”. He was a nice guy but I knew he could not possibly comprehend taking such a risk with nothing to gain except the knowledge that you helped someone that was in bad trouble.

End of sermon.

You have had training to do what you did; the average CHL holder has not. So, unless you have had special training, then you have to go back to my original statement; a CHL is not a Batman license.....

There it is...AGAIN! A CHL IS NOT a Batman license.

[Lambda Force]

There it is...AGAIN! A CHL IS NOT a Batman license.

Neither is a badge.

[Keith B]

There it is...AGAIN! A CHL IS NOT a Batman license.

Neither is a badge.

No, but it IS the job of a LEO to run toward trouble; it is a CHL's job to try and steer clear of trouble.

[Lambda Force]

Does that mean the job of a LEO with a CHL is to run in circles?