HPD: Dad shot man who was with teen daughter

[txinvestigator]

KD5NRH wrote:
He wasn't "carrying in violation" of any part of the statute; he had a shotgun in his own home when the guy came back onto the property.

I never said he was carrying in violation. Read my post again. I said everyone should remember this Penal Code.

??

A shotgun is not a weapon covered in 46.02, so please explain to this simpleton how 9.31(b) (5) applies.

I want everyone to read the original post again. I post on the CHL side and was referring to CHL holders. I said, "But if you come home and see someone with your "who you thought was innocent" daughter, then you pull a gun after they flee. Remember this. PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE"


PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or
about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.

Was it an offense to grab a gun after the suspect had fled?

No

Was it an offense to carry a gun when the suspect return to talk?

No it was not. A shotgun does not make 46.02, nor does it make 9.31.

or was it reckless?

was WHAT reckless????

Was it an offense to display the gun since the suspect was not armed and seeking an explanation from or discussion with the dad concerning their differences?

No, he was not in violation of 46.02 or 46.05.

Obviously he is not going to say that he decided to end this guys life for being in the house with his daughter because that would be considered MURDER I presume.
So I guess he will say that he shot the suspect in self defense.

So you are not referring to the person in the article which is the subject of this thread? He had a shotgun, not a handgun. 46.02 matters not.

If you are referring to a CHL holder, carrying a handgun is NOT in violation 46.02 either. So I still don't get your reference to 9.31 (b)(5) and 46.02.

[casselthief]

The parents are equally culpable in how this daughter is "acting out."

I didn't realize you knew them. Can you give us some insight?

I understand full well that you are bringing up the absurdity of me making personal judgements based on little facts.

that said, I am tired of people (not any one here) that run off at the mouth (on Dr Phil, of course) "Mah chald's gone crazy, I cahn't cuhntrol her!"
well, did you teach them discipline, be over-bearing where it necessitated? get involved?
or did you let them be raised by eMpTyV.
I apologize if that simply does not apply in this case, but I have seen it many a time, and therefore am quick to throw that particular judgement out.

[txinvestigator]

The parents are equally culpable in how this daughter is "acting out."

I didn't realize you knew them. Can you give us some insight?

I understand full well that you are bringing up the absurdity of me making personal judgements based on little facts.

that said, I am tired of people (not any one here) that run off at the mouth (on Dr Phil, of course) "Mah chald's gone crazy, I cahn't cuhntrol her!"
well, did you teach them discipline, be over-bearing where it necessitated? get involved?
or did you let them be raised by eMpTyV.
I apologize if that simply does not apply in this case, but I have seen it many a time, and therefore am quick to throw that particular judgement out.

That was pretty transparent, wasn't it?

I have just seen instances where 2 kids, raised by the same parents in the same environment, turn out 1 great kid, 1 a hoodlum.

However, I agree with you that in most cases the parents caused the problems.

[stevie_d_64]

Whew boy did this ever blow up or what...

I applaud the penal code paste'rs and the folks commenting on the whole who's at fault here gang...I believe it is all good to get this out...There is absolutely no one wrong in conveying their opinion on this incident...

I only counted one or two possibly who commented about how we will probably not hear the whole story on this, and that in and of itself is not totally unexpected...Or reason to not speculate on our part...

We all know what we would do if you interjected yourself into this situation...If you want to play the part of the father, the 13 year old daughter, the mother...And possibly the idiot who was shot and killed...

All I can say is that when this goes to trial, I bet you a dollar to a donut hole that this father walks...

There were serious lapses in judgement for all who were involved...No one had any clear handle on their emotions or their actions...And the result is still the same someone was killed over that "combined" lapse of judgement...

Sure, one was responsible for initiating the encounter, nothing was stated in any report I have seen so far about any sexual impropriety (I stand to be corrected if there was), it took two to choose to complete that aspect of the incident...

And it took one to pull the trigger...

I'm not making any excuses for either party...But I still say the father is going to either plea down any offence, or walk outright per a jury of his peers...

But I bet we'll here a lot more about "Mr. I-have-nothing-but-honorable-intentions-with-your-13-year-old-daughter-Man"...

I believe it is another illustration of how horrible things have become in society where someone believe its ok to mess around with obviously young girls at his age, and not see there is something wrong with the whole situation...But I'll bet he didn't even care...He won't need to anymore, thats for sure...

I just keep one thing in mind...News is news...Not evidence...

[txinvestigator]

I believe it is another illustration of how horrible things have become in society where someone believe its ok to mess around with obviously young girls at his age, and not see there is something wrong with the whole situation...But I'll bet he didn't even care...He won't need to anymore, thats for sure...

I just keep one thing in mind...News is news...Not evidence...

Perfectly worded.

[stevie_d_64]

Just another little tidbit...

http://www.click2houston.com/news/11231839/detail.html

Looks like Mom stayed in the front, Dad went around to the back to flush them out...

Mr. Dove made the mistake of making threatening gestures to the Mom, and bingo...End of story...

The only damnable mistake the Dad made outright was fleeing the scene...That could certainly complicate things...But its no excuse...

Overall I do believe there are some lessons to be learned here...

[Lucky45]

So you are not referring to the person in the article which is the subject of this thread? He had a shotgun, not a handgun. 46.02 matters not.

For those now crossing the finish line, I am referring to anyone in the future that might happen to be faced with this scenario. That ONE (universally meaning any and everybody) should make sure they know this statute before you think you are going to use it. There is nothing complex to over analyze about what I said. Instead of us discussing the angles that a person with CHL would be faced with in a similar scenario. We are playing symantics, looking for where I said "shotgun." Although from the get-go I have used the word gun and never specified.

Obviously I'm not debating about the legal ramifications for the dad because we don't know the whole story.
But trying to use what he was faced with, in our own scenario where we are free to make judgements on your legal standing.

[Lucky45]

casselthief wrote:
The parents are equally culpable in how this daughter is "acting out."

TXi wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:08 pm
I didn't realize you knew them. Can you give us some insight?


casselthief wrote:
I understand full well that you are bringing up the absurdity of me making personal judgements based on little facts.

that said, I am tired of people (not any one here) that run off at the mouth (on Dr Phil, of course) "Mah chald's gone crazy, I cahn't cuhntrol her!"
well, did you teach them discipline, be over-bearing where it necessitated? get involved?
or did you let them be raised by eMpTyV.
I apologize if that simply does not apply in this case, but I have seen it many a time, and therefore am quick to throw that particular judgement out.

TXi wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:07 pm
However, I agree with you that in most cases the parents caused the problems.


Does anybody keep up with this stuff?

[Lucky45]

I believe it is another illustration of how horrible things have become in society where someone believe its ok to mess around with obviously young girls at his age, and not see there is something wrong with the whole situation...

Great post overall Stevie.
One thing that really makes he go hmmm...is the fact that people think that this is a new phenonmenon. Of course it is appalling to think that others don't have the morals that you do. But don't act like you didn't know it happens. When people make fun about what goes on near the border of Mexico, it is not appalling? When alot of their buddies in the corporate circle travel to Southeast Asia where this kind of thing is rampant, it is not appalling? But as soon it hits near home, here comes the outcry. You can't be self righteous only when it hits home. You need to open your eyes to what is going on in the world everyday and speak up.

[txinvestigator]

casselthief wrote:
The parents are equally culpable in how this daughter is "acting out."

TXi wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:08 pm
I didn't realize you knew them. Can you give us some insight?


casselthief wrote:
I understand full well that you are bringing up the absurdity of me making personal judgements based on little facts.

that said, I am tired of people (not any one here) that run off at the mouth (on Dr Phil, of course) "Mah chald's gone crazy, I cahn't cuhntrol her!"
well, did you teach them discipline, be over-bearing where it necessitated? get involved?
or did you let them be raised by eMpTyV.
I apologize if that simply does not apply in this case, but I have seen it many a time, and therefore am quick to throw that particular judgement out.

TXi wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:07 pm
However, I agree with you that in most cases the parents caused the problems.


Does anybody keep up with this stuff?

To what "stuff" are you referring?

[casselthief]

Does anybody keep up with this stuff?

Social Services. CPS, those kind of places....

[Lucky45]

To what "stuff" are you referring?

Don't worry about it, only if you have an antennae and tuned your channel to a certain wavelength will you recieve the broadcast.

[SRVA]

OK guys, time to self moderate so we don't have to.

Steve

[stevie_d_64]

I believe it is another illustration of how horrible things have become in society where someone believe its ok to mess around with obviously young girls at his age, and not see there is something wrong with the whole situation...

Great post overall Stevie.
One thing that really makes he go hmmm...is the fact that people think that this is a new phenonmenon. Of course it is appalling to think that others don't have the morals that you do. But don't act like you didn't know it happens. When people make fun about what goes on near the border of Mexico, it is not appalling? When alot of their budding in the corporate circle travel to Southeast Asia where this kind of thing is rampant, it is not appalling? But as soon it hits near home, here comes the outcry. You can't be self righteous only when it hits home. You need to open your eyes to what is going on in the world everyday and speak up.

Back on topic...Sort of...

I have direct experience in seeing the effects of what happens overseas, and am not surprised that the culture has developed and thrived in the United States...It was bound to happen...

Seeing most of the guys I served with who couldn't wait to hit those ports of call...

I am not surprised to see the same mentality apparent here in this incident...

If it were up to me I can't see me faulting the father for what he did, but he did it wrong...Thats why I believe he'll walk...

But putting myself in his position, I just can't imagine it getting that bad if it were me in the first place...

So when, and if, we get information that clarifies this a little more, I am not sure there is much more that can be said than has been already...

[srothstein]

I'd argue that he's raping her, and as far as the law is concerned, it IS statutory rape.

That leads me to a good question. I realise it's a HUGE strech, but the law allows defense of 3rd parties from rape, does that include statutory rape as well? Does Texas look at both the same, or are they different crimes?

It is not a big stretch at all. There is no such crime in Texas as statutory rape. The crime is sexual assault and it does not matter if the assault is by force (although that could make it aggravated) or by the female being unable to consent due to intoxication, mental capability, or age.

In the case being discussed, if the man had been having sex with a 13 year old girl, it is by legal definition sexual assault, and is the same crime as if he had held a 21 year old down against her will.