17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[baldeagle]

...you can go back days...which makes no sense...or you can isolate the chain of events we're talking about here...in which case what jocat54 and others have written is easily recognized as the first thing that was wrong and began it all...it was the first wrong choice of the evening...

And the second wrong choice was Trayvon's decision to double back to attack Zimmerman as he was returning to his vehicle after attempting to determine where Trayvon had run off to, something Zimmerman never could have foreseen.

...and that second wrong choice never could have happened if Z hadn't made the first one...if he hadn't followed, NOTHING would have happened between them...

Wrong! You cannot know what Trayvon would have done if GZ had stayed in his vehicle. Considering he doubled back to confront GZ, he might well have attacked him in his car.

[speedsix]

...I realize that you're not acknowledging any information that doesn't fit your viewpoint...so there's no point in you and I arguing...why raise the question if you already know the answer??? I won't address you about it again...

[Oldgringo]

...you can go back days...which makes no sense...or you can isolate the chain of events we're talking about here...in which case what jocat54 and others have written is easily recognized as the first thing that was wrong and began it all...it was the first wrong choice of the evening...

And the second wrong choice was Trayvon's decision to double back to attack Zimmerman as he was returning to his vehicle after attempting to determine where Trayvon had run off to, something Zimmerman never could have foreseen.

...and that second wrong choice never could have happened if Z hadn't made the first one...if he hadn't followed, NOTHING would have happened between them...

Wrong! You cannot know what Trayvon would have done if GZ had stayed in his vehicle. Considering he doubled back to confront GZ, he might well have attacked him in his car.

You reckon Trayvon could outrun Z's vehicle. Some of them people are pretty fast....as in

[apostate]

IIRC, Gordon Hale remained in his vehicle...

[philip964]

Well it appears the Zimmerman's are in trouble.

The husband, now because a lot of his case depends on his word of what happened. His honesty is now in question because of the what I will call "shenannigans" that he and his wife played before his bond hearing.

The wife, now because of her apparent perjury during the bond hearing and the "shenannigans" they played with their finances right before the bond hearing.

http://www.chron.com/default/article/Tr ... 629597.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apparently there were deliberate actions to transfer multiple amounts under $10,000 (to avoid federal reporting) from the husbands account into the wife's.

[ScooterSissy]

...no, it's nothing at all like that...driving down the road is a perfectly normal thing to do...that's not a good example of what I said...

Maybe, someday, making note of strangers in your area who are acting strangely, and yes, even following them, will be the "norm".

...Z, on the other hand, acted AGAINST the norm...acted against the rules of the group he was a "captain" of...took on the role of supersleuth...

Repeating that he "acted against the rules of the group" does not make it a fact. He did not confront anyone physically, and that's the only rule I've seen you quote that comes close.

...normal for a citizen and RIGHT for a trained member of specifically the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch is to observe and report to the police suspicious behaviour...and then to go about your business and let the POLICE track, follow, and chase down the suspicious one...

You're partially right. They're supposed to observe and report. Which is exactly what he was doing. There's nothing in their rules about "going about your business..."

......ABNORMAL, FOOLISH, and (here's that word that noone wants to use) WRONG is to leave your house and follow him down the street, chase him when he runs...and if he jumps you...you caused the whole situation...by doing something you had no business doing...call it in and go back to your game and he can't jump you, now can he???

There is absolutely nothing I've seen anywhere that indicates that Zimmerman "chased" Martin. Do you have some information you can share?

I'm curious, why the need to exaggerate what Zimmerman did, if what he actually did was so "wrong"?

[speedsix]

...I really hope that following strangers in our area who are acting strangely doesn't become the norm for the average citizen...then our police wouldn't have much to do...and besides, sometime it provokes serious problems...

...he DID act against the rules of the NW group...and I've posted the rules several times...they don't say(at least in their official handbook) not to "confront someone physically"...maybe you can show us where you got that...but they DO say:
" What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency."

...kinda clear and to the point, isn't it...when you bother to read it...and getting out of your vehicle and following someone down the street and running after them is clearly getting physically involved with activity you report...and going about your business means you're NOT going about the police's business(see above)...

...no exxageration on my part...but when you can post things like"


"There is absolutely nothing I've seen anywhere that indicates that Zimmerman "chased" Martin. Do you have some information you can share?"

...then it's clear to me that you either haven't listened to Z's 911 tape or read the prosecutor's affidavit(I guess she doesn't like the word chase either, she used the word "persuing"...or you're in denial because they say something you don't want them to...both have been posted numerous times...but instead of getting the substance of what's being said, you prefer to pick and choose words and phrases to attack...ignoring the obvious meaning...kinda like putting your hands over your eyes and saying "I can't SEE you"...

...having one's own opinion is a good thing...ignoring the facts...not so much...

[speedsix]

IIRC, Gordon Hale remained in his vehicle...

...what does a road rage incident several years ago have to do with the discussion here??? I'm having trouble tying it in...

[mamabearCali]

...I really hope that following strangers in our area who are acting strangely doesn't become the norm for the average citizen...then our police wouldn't have much to do...and besides, sometime it provokes serious problems...

Perhaps that is the problem. We are so busy minding our own business we have forgotten how to be neighbors and how to look out for one another. Zimmerman whatever his faults was known for being a good neighbor and watching out for others.

...he DID act against the rules of the NW group...and I've posted the rules several times...they don't say(at least in their official handbook) not to "confront someone physically"...maybe you can show us where you got that...but they DO say:
" What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency."

...kinda clear and to the point, isn't it...when you bother to read it...and getting out of your vehicle and following someone down the street and running after them is clearly getting physically involved with activity you report...and going about your business means you're NOT going about the police's business(see above)...

You have an interesting definition of what getting physically involved is. Most people would think that would include bodily contact or at least verbal contact (We know Zimmerman had none of which until Martin doubled back to confront him). I would not call getting out of your car to see which way a person goes "physically invovled." Tactically unwise, certainly, but only because it opens you up to attack. It does not precipitate the attack. Now Zimmerman most certainly was physically involved. However once someone is banging another persons head on the ground all "rules" from NW are out the window.

...no exxageration on my part...but when you can post things like"


"There is absolutely nothing I've seen anywhere that indicates that Zimmerman "chased" Martin. Do you have some information you can share?"

...then it's clear to me that you either haven't listened to Z's 911 tape or read the prosecutor's affidavit(I guess she doesn't like the word chase either, she used the word "persuing"...or you're in denial because they say something you don't want them to...both have been posted numerous times...but instead of getting the substance of what's being said, you prefer to pick and choose words and phrases to attack...ignoring the obvious meaning...kinda like putting your hands over your eyes and saying "I can't SEE you"...

...having one's own opinion is a good thing...ignoring the facts...not so much...

We all see things as we want to. You included. I don't see going over to see where someone is headed as chasing (you have to want to catch them to be chasing IMO). We know Zimmerman did not want to "catch" Martin. He wanted the police to catch him.

You are ignoring some facts too. You are ignoring the fact that the 911 operator asked Zimmerman if he could see which way Martin went, that could easily be misunderstood as a request to get out of his car and go and look. You are ignoring that on the tapes when Zimmerman is told that he does not need to follow Martin, the fast footsteps stop. You are ignoring the fact that there is no evidence Zimmerman had any physical (and by that I mean bodily or verbal) contact until Martin (by his friends testimony) went back to confront Zimmerman. You are ignoring the fact that Zimmerman was headed back to his car (according to him and I have no reason to believe otherwise) to meet the police when he was attacked by Martin.

You are painting him as a cop wanna-be, or at least a fool and a half. I think in reality he was trying to be a good neighbor and watch out for his fellow man. If I had a choice between having Zimmerman or Martin as my next door neighbor I would choose Zimmerman every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[WildBill]

I don't understand all the fuss about whether or not Z stayed in the car.

He didn't stay in the car. That's like arguing about if both people stayed at home and watched Dancing With The Stars, none of this would have happened.

[speedsix]

I don't understand all the fuss about whether or not Z stayed in the car.

He didn't stay in the car. That's like arguing about if both people stayed at home and watched Dancing With The Stars, none of this would have happened.

...your second sentence and third answer the first...and you're right...if he HAD stayed in the car, he wouldn't have followed anyone, they wouldn't have become alarmed/upset, and none of this would have happened...that's my point from day one...he followed and chased after TM, TM got alarmed/upset, and the rest is to be hashed out in the courts...by becoming physically involved in the activity he reported(following and chasing), he put himself where he was when the rest of it happened...instead of safely going on his way to the store or home...
...he crossed the line between good citizen and wannabe...and HE knew it, being a member of NW...

[speedsix]

...I really hope that following strangers in our area who are acting strangely doesn't become the norm for the average citizen...then our police wouldn't have much to do...and besides, sometime it provokes serious problems...

Perhaps that is the problem. We are so busy minding our own business we have forgotten how to be neighbors and how to look out for one another. Zimmerman whatever his faults was known for being a good neighbor and watching out for others.
[looking out for one another is reporting a suspicious person...not setting out to follow and chase him, provoking an incident like this...being a good neighbor is letting the police do the following and chasing...especially when you have no evidence that a crime has even been committed]

...he DID act against the rules of the NW group...and I've posted the rules several times...they don't say(at least in their official handbook) not to "confront someone physically"...maybe you can show us where you got that...but they DO say:
" What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency."

...kinda clear and to the point, isn't it...when you bother to read it...and getting out of your vehicle and following someone down the street and running after them is clearly getting physically involved with activity you report...and going about your business means you're NOT going about the police's business(see above)...

You have an interesting definition of what getting physically involved is. Most people would think that would include bodily contact or at least verbal contact (We know Zimmerman had none of which until Martin doubled back to confront him). I would not call getting out of your car to see which way a person goes "physically invovled." Tactically unwise, certainly, but only because it opens you up to attack. It does not precipitate the attack. Now Zimmerman most certainly was physically involved. However once someone is banging another persons head on the ground all "rules" from NW are out the window.
[how can you say what "most people" would think something means? the words used in the handbook mean what they say...if they'd only meant what you think they meant...they would have used those words...and you're minimizing what he did...he didn't just get out of his car...he followed and chased his suspect...or the attack you jump to would not have happened...if he'd followed the NW rule...the attack couldn't have happened...he wouldn't have been there...he would have been gone or sitting in the locked vehicle waiting for the police...safe as a bug in a rug...and look what happened when an untrained, unauthorized wannabe followed a suspect...he got jumped...because he was out doing something the police should have been doing...]

...no exxageration on my part...but when you can post things like"


"There is absolutely nothing I've seen anywhere that indicates that Zimmerman "chased" Martin. Do you have some information you can share?"

...then it's clear to me that you either haven't listened to Z's 911 tape or read the prosecutor's affidavit(I guess she doesn't like the word chase either, she used the word "persuing"...or you're in denial because they say something you don't want them to...both have been posted numerous times...but instead of getting the substance of what's being said, you prefer to pick and choose words and phrases to attack...ignoring the obvious meaning...kinda like putting your hands over your eyes and saying "I can't SEE you"...

...having one's own opinion is a good thing...ignoring the facts...not so much...

We all see things as we want to. You included. I don't see going over to see where someone is headed as chasing (you have to want to catch them to be chasing IMO). We know Zimmerman did not want to "catch" Martin. He wanted the police to catch him.
[...he didn't just "go over to see where someone is headed"...he followed TM...enough to alarm and upset him...and "wanting to catch them" is only one definition of chasing...running after and pursuing is also...and has nothing to do with wanting to catch...I didn't say a word about him wanting to catch him...]
You are ignoring some facts too. You are ignoring the fact that the 911 operator asked Zimmerman if he could see which way Martin went, that could easily be misunderstood as a request to get out of his car and go and look.
[...only by someone predisposed to do so...a lot of people would say no and remain in the safety of their car]
You are ignoring that on the tapes when Zimmerman is told that he does not need to follow Martin, the fast footsteps stop.
[...no, I'm not...he was running after TM...the fact that he may have stopped when told that they didn't need him to follow TM doesn't erase the FACT that he did it...]

You are ignoring the fact that there is no evidence Zimmerman had any physical (and by that I mean bodily or verbal) contact until Martin (by his friends testimony) went back to confront Zimmerman.
[...no, I'm not...I never hinted that he did...we're back to your interpretation of the words "physically involved with any activity you report"...and they don't say a word about a suspect...or bodily or verbal contact with a suspect...they deal with just what they say...the activity you report...and he did ignore them]

You are ignoring the fact that Zimmerman was headed back to his car (according to him and I have no reason to believe otherwise) to meet the police when he was attacked by Martin.
[...no, I'm not...that has nothing to do with anything I addressed...and is AFTER the following and chasing that I DID address]

You are painting him as a cop wanna-be, or at least a fool and a half.
[...not painting him...flat out saying the cop wanna-be...the fool and a half is your assessment]
I think in reality he was trying to be a good neighbor and watch out for his fellow man. If I had a choice between having Zimmerman or Martin as my next door neighbor I would choose Zimmerman every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[I'd rather have TM...at least he was minding his own business and didn't stir up trouble by playing police...]

(my replies to your comments in [ ] above...
...once again, the words mean what they say...they say what they mean...and all this adding to and interpreting is just a way to support a pre-conceived notion...if you just read what was said, it's a lot easier...

[ScooterSissy]

...I really hope that following strangers in our area who are acting strangely doesn't become the norm for the average citizen...then our police wouldn't have much to do...and besides, sometime it provokes serious problems...

...he DID act against the rules of the NW group...and I've posted the rules several times...they don't say(at least in their official handbook) not to "confront someone physically"...maybe you can show us where you got that...but they DO say:
" What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency."

I believe confront was the word you used, that was why I used it.

Sorry guy, we're going to disagree on whether or not he was "physically involved with any activity". He followed and reported. He didn't engage Martin, and nothing shown so far indicates he even really wanted to be seen. While following to report does involve physical activity, I doubt the "rules" (and they aren't rules, they're guidelines) intended to preclude all physical activity - since picking up the phone to call involves physical activity.

......kinda clear and to the point, isn't it...when you bother to read it...and getting out of your vehicle and following someone down the street and running after them is clearly getting physically involved with activity you report...and going about your business means you're NOT going about the police's business(see above)...

...no exxageration on my part...but when you can post things like"


"There is absolutely nothing I've seen anywhere that indicates that Zimmerman "chased" Martin. Do you have some information you can share?"

...then it's clear to me that you either haven't listened to Z's 911 tape or read the prosecutor's affidavit(I guess she doesn't like the word chase either, she used the word "persuing"...or you're in denial because they say something you don't want them to...both have been posted numerous times...but instead of getting the substance of what's being said, you prefer to pick and choose words and phrases to attack...ignoring the obvious meaning...kinda like putting your hands over your eyes and saying "I can't SEE you"...

I've read the reports, and listened to the 911 tapes. There was nothing in the reports to indicate Zimmerman chased anyone. Sorry, the prosecutor's affidavit is full of opinion, and even you reluctantly admit she didn't say "chase". For what it's worth, pursued and chase don't have the exact same meaning. As a matter of fact, pursued is so vague it could mean anything from Zimmerman attempting to overtack Martin (no indication of that) to something as simple as continuing to follow.

......having one's own opinion is a good thing...ignoring the facts...not so much...

On that we can agree. You and I don't know the facts.

[ScooterSissy]

...I really hope that following strangers in our area who are acting strangely doesn't become the norm for the average citizen...then our police wouldn't have much to do...and besides, sometime it provokes serious problems...

Perhaps that is the problem. We are so busy minding our own business we have forgotten how to be neighbors and how to look out for one another. Zimmerman whatever his faults was known for being a good neighbor and watching out for others.

Thank you!!! Personally, I don't think the polic not having much to do would be a wonderful thing.

[Oldgringo]

I don't understand all the fuss about whether or not Z stayed in the car.

He didn't stay in the car. That's like arguing about if both people stayed at home and watched Dancing With The Stars, none of this would have happened.

That's exactly right, Bill! You won't see any of them dancers following strangers around in the dark, I'll betcha'.

I also suspect that there are many Z supporters in this thread who talk a lot bigger game than they would play if placed in a similar situation. In fact, I suspect there are a lot of Z supporters herein who would never be placed in Z's position because they would never volunteer to be on their Neighborhood Watch squad. I can see/hear the excuses now, "I'm drivin' the kids tomorrow", "Suzie has the croop", "I have an early flight", "Dancin with Stars" is on tonight, "The in-laws are coming over", "Tonight is our night", etc., etc., ad nauseum.

The unfolding facts indicate that the Zimmermans are not the brightest bulbs on the tree. If George, bless his well-intentioned heart, had stayed in his vehicle, they would not be in the trouble they are in now.

Now then, y'all go and do the right thing. When it's your turn to be on Neighborhood Watch, you do what you think is best...and let us know how it works out for you. Inquiring minds...