UN Gun Control Treaty

[chasfm11]

My faith is that Congress will act to not allow ratification of the UN gun treaty. I have no such faith in Obama's willingness to act within the law. And, given his Fast & Furious record, I don't believe that he thinks he needs a UN treaty or congressional ratification to try and severely restrict gun rights in the U.S.

I believe in educating the young about his nefarious purposes so that they will vote correctly when they're of age to do so. I believe in voting myself at every opportunity to ensure that the criminals and bums get thrown out of office. I do believe in the ballot box above all else.........but I am keeping my powder dry......

Thanks for your concurrence on Kyoto. I do not fully share your faith in our Senate because too many times in the past, votes have been recorded that give every outward appearance of violating the principals which the Senators who cast them espoused in public. Part of the concern is that there is often very little difference between the parties on what I consider to be seriously anti-American matters.

You approach is the best one. Too often we "of a certain age" spend our time railing to one another about the current state of governmental affairs. My political group and even our Congressman's last public forum showed a preponderance of gray hair. It was hard to find anyone under 40 in attendance. If we are to succeed at "throwing the bums out", it will take more than the senior citizen voting block. It just seems like an enormous mountain to climb to overcome the years of public school indoctrination that most have received. Even our granddaughter (2nd grade) was told in school that guns were bad.

[jimlongley]

If all else fails, blue helmets make great targets. Just sayin'.

Indeed.

Yeah, the Navy found out about how well blue stands out back in the 60s in a little "brush fire" war with the commies.

[jimlongley]

. . . Too often we "of a certain age" spend our time railing to one another about the current state of governmental affairs. My political group and even our Congressman's last public forum showed a preponderance of gray hair. It was hard to find anyone under 40 in attendance. If we are to succeed at "throwing the bums out", it will take more than the senior citizen voting block. It just seems like an enormous mountain to climb to overcome the years of public school indoctrination that most have received. Even our granddaughter (2nd grade) was told in school that guns were bad.

And "we of a certain age" were mostly educated by people who spent an awful lot of time telling us what I now consider to be pure liberal propaganda. Even the fledgling UN was presented to us as the ultimate force for world peace, but it has obviously evolved into something different, and to me it is no surprise that it thinks it should be a world government.

[chasfm11]

. . . Too often we "of a certain age" spend our time railing to one another about the current state of governmental affairs. My political group and even our Congressman's last public forum showed a preponderance of gray hair. It was hard to find anyone under 40 in attendance. If we are to succeed at "throwing the bums out", it will take more than the senior citizen voting block. It just seems like an enormous mountain to climb to overcome the years of public school indoctrination that most have received. Even our granddaughter (2nd grade) was told in school that guns were bad.

And "we of a certain age" were mostly educated by people who spent an awful lot of time telling us what I now consider to be pure liberal propaganda. Even the fledgling UN was presented to us as the ultimate force for world peace, but it has obviously evolved into something different, and to me it is no surprise that it thinks it should be a world government.

I agree that the indoctrination is not new. But where it was more or less convert during our school periods, today it is overt - almost "in your face." What you and I heard is mild compared the the much more universally scripted methods that are delivered through public education.

A great example was the concealed carry "discussion" last year at UT Arlington. What a biased, unabashed harangue. While there was some attempt at balance and providing the facts by the faculty panel, the moderator was completely over the top. Many dictatorships would have been proud. No...wait....

[74novaman]

. . . Too often we "of a certain age" spend our time railing to one another about the current state of governmental affairs. My political group and even our Congressman's last public forum showed a preponderance of gray hair. It was hard to find anyone under 40 in attendance. If we are to succeed at "throwing the bums out", it will take more than the senior citizen voting block. It just seems like an enormous mountain to climb to overcome the years of public school indoctrination that most have received. Even our granddaughter (2nd grade) was told in school that guns were bad.

And "we of a certain age" were mostly educated by people who spent an awful lot of time telling us what I now consider to be pure liberal propaganda. Even the fledgling UN was presented to us as the ultimate force for world peace, but it has obviously evolved into something different, and to me it is no surprise that it thinks it should be a world government.

Y'all had to deal with liberal hogwash just like we did. I think at least partially due to the sorry state of the economy, many of my peers (I'm 25) are starting to realize government is not the solution, but a major part of the problem rather early on.

I saw lots of young folks at tea party rallies, many of my friends voted in the primaries this year and in 2010, and most of them self identify as Republicans or libertarians. A lot of them are shooters, too.

I think Obama has lost my generation. Remember, many of those college kids who voted for him in 08 are graduates now, with little to no job prospects and aren't happy about the quality of the hope and change they received. They will either stay home or vote R this time around.

Barring some unforeseen miraculous turn around, I really think Obama is toast in November. He's down in polling across all age groups and races. When you just look at "likely" voters instead of "registered" voters, it starts looking even worse for him.

[chasfm11]

Barring some unforeseen miraculous turn around, I really think Obama is toast in November. He's down in polling across all age groups and races. When you just look at "likely" voters instead of "registered" voters, it starts looking even worse for him.

I believe that it is a huge mistake to think that our problems begin and end with our current President. He is a rabid advocate but not the only one.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/nation/2648 ... nment.html
The Pioneer 09 December 2011 00:06 Staff Reporter

The whole world government, world law set has many of the same characteristics as the Climate Change movement. It appears to be as devoid of logic, reason and basis but mirrors the same level of constant clamor by a small minority. The gun control item is but one line item on that agenda.

Taking it one step further, I believe those who believe in American exceptionalism and are advocates for strict Constitutional adherence are being targeted. We are an impediment to the new world order. So be it. And I don't believe any of that is going to change, regardless of who gets elected. We are but pawns in the Bilderberg game.

Does anyone have any spare tin foil? I managed to get a hole in my hat.

[74novaman]

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs ... ade-treaty

“The Arms Trade Treaty will not in any way handicap the legitimate right of self-defense,” Acting Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Rose Gottemoeller said in a tweet.

Now, some thoughts:

1) The fact they used the term "legitimate right of self defense" makes me smile. Shows how far the debate in this country over gun control has come from the "sporting purpose" days.

2) I am concerned what they would view as "legitimate". For example, I'm sure they don't think I need a magazine over 10 rounds, the ability to carry a gun outside of my own home, the ability to own an "evil assault rifle", etc.

3) The mere fact that they would bother coming out and saying that we shouldn't worry about what this treaty would do to 2nd amendment rights in the US tends to make me actually worry about what its going to do. It's one thing to hear the usual "UN wants to take our guns" talk. Its another when this administration with a demonstrable history of lying through their teeth starts telling me there is nothing to worry about.

This is something worth watching, at least.

[chasfm11]

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs ... ade-treaty

“The Arms Trade Treaty will not in any way handicap the legitimate right of self-defense,” Acting Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Rose Gottemoeller said in a tweet.

Now, some thoughts:

1) The fact they used the term "legitimate right of self defense" makes me smile. Shows how far the debate in this country over gun control has come from the "sporting purpose" days.

2) I am concerned what they would view as "legitimate". For example, I'm sure they don't think I need a magazine over 10 rounds, the ability to carry a gun outside of my own home, the ability to own an "evil assault rifle", etc.

3) The mere fact that they would bother coming out and saying that we shouldn't worry about what this treaty would do to 2nd amendment rights in the US tends to make me actually worry about what its going to do. It's one thing to hear the usual "UN wants to take our guns" talk. Its another when this administration with a demonstrable history of lying through their teeth starts telling me there is nothing to worry about.

This is something worth watching, at least.

How about some more interesting thoughts:

1. Glocks, Sigs and others come from European countries with what are essentially retail outlet in the US. How will this treaty affect that supply of guns?

2. I've always feared that they would use the ammo supply to control guns. No where do I see that mentioned. I cannot believe or imagine that controlling ammo hasn't be discussed.

3. "those who violate human rights or are subject to UN arms embargoes" The UN has accused the US of human rights violations in the past. Human rights violations is one of the areas where the UN just doesn't get it wrong, they have it completely backward.


I'm sorry but hearing "there, there, not to worry" from Asst. Secretary of State Gottemoeller, when she is pretty much surrounded by openly anti-gun people isn't very reassuring. I ran her bio and didn't find anything like her being a very good friend of the Brady bunch. Either that or her online persona has been pretty carefully scrubbed.

[74novaman]

I'm sorry but hearing "there, there, not to worry" from Asst. Secretary of State Gottemoeller, when she is pretty much surrounded by openly anti-gun people isn't very reassuring. I ran her bio and didn't find anything like her being a very good friend of the Brady bunch. Either that or her online persona has been pretty carefully scrubbed.

I agree. Like I said in point 3, I wasn't too concerned one way or the other when I first heard about it because the UN has been pushing the small arms treaty for years and nothing has come of it.

But since they're busy telling us not to worry about it, it has my attention now.

[57Coastie]

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs ... ade-treaty

“The Arms Trade Treaty will not in any way handicap the legitimate right of self-defense,” Acting Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Rose Gottemoeller said in a tweet.

Now, some thoughts:

1) The fact they used the term "legitimate right of self defense" makes me smile. Shows how far the debate in this country over gun control has come from the "sporting purpose" days.

2) I am concerned what they would view as "legitimate". For example, I'm sure they don't think I need a magazine over 10 rounds, the ability to carry a gun outside of my own home, the ability to own an "evil assault rifle", etc.

3) The mere fact that they would bother coming out and saying that we shouldn't worry about what this treaty would do to 2nd amendment rights in the US tends to make me actually worry about what its going to do. It's one thing to hear the usual "UN wants to take our guns" talk. Its another when this administration with a demonstrable history of lying through their teeth starts telling me there is nothing to worry about.

This is something worth watching, at least.

While I in no way differ with your conclusion, novaman, that "this is something worth watching," I do think there is merit in quoting the remainder of the article in TheHill.com to which you refer. That is, comparing the outcome of the negotiations with these asssurances of the U. S. negotiating position may assist us in our "watching."

Key U. S. Redlines

• The Second Amendment to the Constitution must be upheld.
• There will be no restrictions on civilian possession or trade of firearms otherwise permitted by law or protected by the U.S. Constitution.
• There will be no dilution or diminishing of sovereign control over issues involving the private acquisition, ownership, or possession of firearms, which must remain matters of domestic law.
• The U.S. will oppose provisions inconsistent with existing U.S. law or that would unduly interfere with our ability to import, export, or transfer arms in support of our national security and foreign policy interests.
• The international arms trade is a legitimate commercial activity, and otherwise lawful commercial trade in arms must not be unduly hindered.
• There will be no requirement for reporting on or marking and tracing of ammunition or explosives.
• There will be no lowering of current international standards.
• Existing nonproliferation and export control regimes must not be undermined.
• The ATT negotiations must have consensus decision making to allow us to protect U.S. equities.
• There will be no mandate for an international body to enforce an ATT.

Similarly, these "Redlines" may perhaps themselves deserve questioning in advance of any agreement? Likewise, these assurances may give us concrete ways to justify the standard and eminently unhelpful cry of "I don't believe them."

As one who served with the U. S. Foreign Service for a very long time, including being engaged for years in the difficult negotiation of a treaty with more than 100 nations, I view this list as a paraphrase of our ATT delegation's instructions from Washington, and that they most likely went through an arduous vetting by the NSC and every agency affected.

Jim

[longtooth]

Dick Morris was just on Fox News claiming that the UN will vote on the gun control treaty this month. Is this something we need to worry about, or am I correct in thinking that the constitution overrides treaties?

The treaty has to be approved by a 2/3 vote of the Senate before the president can ratify it, giving it the force of law in the U.S. If the treaty requires any expenditure of U.S. funds to enforce it as law in the U.S., the House of Representatives can block the funding of it, rendering it de facto irrelevant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification#United_States

Furthermore, even if ratified, a later Congress can repeal ratification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Clause#Repeal

It is a concern that the UN is voting on this, further confirming their immorality and irrelevance to U.S. law, but I don't think it is quite the cause for panic that some feel.

Hope you are right.
I am not panicing. As I teach in class: I dont want anyone paranoid. I what them prepared.
I am not panicing just preparing.
Continuing to reload.

[C-dub]

If all else fails, blue helmets make great targets. Just sayin'.

So, what would the Elm Fork range think if I showed up with some of those zombie targets wearing blue helmets?

[mr surveyor]

buy stock in "homegrown" firearms manufacturers

[DEB]

Dick Morris was just on Fox News claiming that the UN will vote on the gun control treaty this month. Is this something we need to worry about, or am I correct in thinking that the constitution overrides treaties?

The treaty has to be approved by a 2/3 vote of the Senate before the president can ratify it, giving it the force of law in the U.S. If the treaty requires any expenditure of U.S. funds to enforce it as law in the U.S., the House of Representatives can block the funding of it, rendering it de facto irrelevant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification#United_States

Furthermore, even if ratified, a later Congress can repeal ratification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Clause#Repeal

It is a concern that the UN is voting on this, further confirming their immorality and irrelevance to U.S. law, but I don't think it is quite the cause for panic that some feel.

Hope you are right.
I am not panicing. As I teach in class: I dont want anyone paranoid. I what them prepared.
I am not panicing just preparing.
Continuing to reload.

I didn't believe Judge Roberts would have voted the way he did either, concerning Obama Care, just saying...

[Heartland Patriot]

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs ... ade-treaty

“The Arms Trade Treaty will not in any way handicap the legitimate right of self-defense,” Acting Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Rose Gottemoeller said in a tweet.

Now, some thoughts:

1) The fact they used the term "legitimate right of self defense" makes me smile. Shows how far the debate in this country over gun control has come from the "sporting purpose" days.

2) I am concerned what they would view as "legitimate". For example, I'm sure they don't think I need a magazine over 10 rounds, the ability to carry a gun outside of my own home, the ability to own an "evil assault rifle", etc.

3) The mere fact that they would bother coming out and saying that we shouldn't worry about what this treaty would do to 2nd amendment rights in the US tends to make me actually worry about what its going to do. It's one thing to hear the usual "UN wants to take our guns" talk. Its another when this administration with a demonstrable history of lying through their teeth starts telling me there is nothing to worry about.

This is something worth watching, at least.

How about some more interesting thoughts:

1. Glocks, Sigs and others come from European countries with what are essentially retail outlet in the US. How will this treaty affect that supply of guns?

2. I've always feared that they would use the ammo supply to control guns. No where do I see that mentioned. I cannot believe or imagine that controlling ammo hasn't be discussed.

3. "those who violate human rights or are subject to UN arms embargoes" The UN has accused the US of human rights violations in the past. Human rights violations is one of the areas where the UN just doesn't get it wrong, they have it completely backward.


I'm sorry but hearing "there, there, not to worry" from Asst. Secretary of State Gottemoeller, when she is pretty much surrounded by openly anti-gun people isn't very reassuring. I ran her bio and didn't find anything like her being a very good friend of the Brady bunch. Either that or her online persona has been pretty carefully scrubbed.

NOW you get what I'm talking about...its not about the firearms in the USA directly, but about indirectly limiting or eliminating outside sources of firearms and ammunition into the USA. SUPPLY AND DEMAND. They reduce the supply, demand initially stays level or rises, and so do the prices...this then forces the demand back down, which is what the end goal is...the fewer folks that own guns, the fewer young folks that grow up around guns...and the cycle gets repeated, in a regressing pattern until the collectivist statist goal of disarmament is achieved. I'm not making any jokes about tinfoil hats because I'm not crazy, those leftists ARE control freaks and they really DO want us all disarmed, the misplaced faith of people such as gdanaher in either the benevolence or incompetence of the UN notwithstanding. Dictatorial regimes don't want the "peasantry" armed, having them disarmed makes it easier to bully them, or round them up, or starve them out, ala Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, or Mao.