17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[WildBill]

"Sorry" implies that one has done something wrong. "Saddened" is a much safer word.

In certain cases, this is true.

[C-dub]

Interesting, my company's lawyer spoke to us one time and said that saying you are sorry about something is not an admission of guilt. He said it two or three times to emphasize it.

[WildBill]

Interesting, my company's lawyer spoke to us one time and said that saying you are sorry about something is not an admission of guilt. He said it two or three times to emphasize it.

AndyC stated that this "could be implied", which I agree. The implied meaning could depend on whether or not you have any person involvement. George Zimmerman's statement about "being sorry" about Trayvon Martin's death would have a different meaning than my statement about "being sorry" about his death, since I was in Texas when it occurred.

[Dragonfighter]

Big difference between a hero complex and a hero. Zimmerman was playing cop without the training an LEO has and made poor choices with a tragic outcome.

I am no law enforcement office but what kind of cop training would have prevented this tragedy?

My point is an LEO would not be alone, would have at least been readily identifiable as an LEO and most likely would have his/her lights flashing on their cruiser. Provided Martin was not breaking the law, he would have had nothing to fear from a police officer questioning him. As I have said in previous posts, this is a case of two people making poor choices. Martin for trying to confront Zimmerman about why he was following him and Zimmerman for getting out of his car to follow him which as far as I know all neighborhood watch volunteers are told not to do. It is not a clear cut instance of racial profiling, but rather an instance two people making some poor choices with a tragic outcome.

Or what if he was off duty, on the way to the store and got out to follow the suspicious person while calling it in. No gun or badge showing, not in uniform, same result? Maybe, or do a lot of LEOs happen to be in uniform or have their badges visible at all times.

[BKRushing]

I've been biting my tongue here for months on this thing. I can't stand it any longer. I'll try to summarize my thoguhts, put them out there, and see what everyone thinks.

1) Zimmerman made tactical errors, and judgement errors. He's not "perfect" as some say, but I don't think he was specifically "looking for a fight" as others would say.
2) Martin was no innocent kid. He (apparently) was somewhere he had the right to be (Staying with a relative), but the way he allegedly ended up there tells us of his background. Not perfect...by any stretch.
3) Between the MSM Hype/spin/selling commercials, the prosecution's witch hunt, and the defense keeping their case close to the vest (we hope, if they're worth what they're being paid) there are KEY FACTS we're not yet privvy to. We can only make our judgements based on what we have.
4) GIven (1) and (2) above, the CRIMINAL side of this doesn't really boil down to the entire incident, but the last 20-30 seconds of Martin's troubled life. From what evidence we have available, it appears that Zimmerman had cause to be in fear for his life--the head injuries at least make this PLAUSIBLE.

In short, Zimmerman *MAY* be 'elgible' for a manslaughter trial, with a defense of justifiable homicide. Murder indicates premeditation, and I really don't think that's where we're at--at least not based on what *I* get out of what's been released.

In short, the CRIMINAL side of this boils down to "does Z have the right to defend himself with deadly force." ALL the rest of this--the part that has otherwise reasonable and like-minded people at each others' throats--is a CIVIL issue...the "Was it preventable" side of it, or the "Should he?" question.


All the discussion and arguement is valid, but lets remember the difference between a criminal act, and the civil side of it...criminal law is necesarily very narrowly defined, and asks/answers very narrow questions about specific PARTS of the incident.

We talk about the "TOTALITY of the circumstance," but that's not as much the subject of a criminal trial as it is the subject of "what really happened here."

And let us never forget that in the end, the facts are only an element of the truth--that the "whole truth" is more than just the raw facts...the FACT that Nolan Ryan threw more home runs than any other pitcher in history doesn't tell the TRUTH that he's the greatest pitcher of all time....

The only thing we can truly be certain of is that this case is destined to set precedents. The sad thing is that it didn't have to, but at this point, there's no way it can't.

Whew. Now that I've got that off my chest, I now return you to the heart of the discussion!

Very well put, I'll bite.

[BKRushing]

Big difference between a hero complex and a hero. Zimmerman was playing cop without the training an LEO has and made poor choices with a tragic outcome.

I am no law enforcement office but what kind of cop training would have prevented this tragedy?

My point is an LEO would not be alone, would have at least been readily identifiable as an LEO and most likely would have his/her lights flashing on their cruiser. Provided Martin was not breaking the law, he would have had nothing to fear from a police officer questioning him. As I have said in previous posts, this is a case of two people making poor choices. Martin for trying to confront Zimmerman about why he was following him and Zimmerman for getting out of his car to follow him which as far as I know all neighborhood watch volunteers are told not to do. It is not a clear cut instance of racial profiling, but rather an instance two people making some poor choices with a tragic outcome.

Or what if he was off duty, on the way to the store and got out to follow the suspicious person while calling it in. No gun or badge showing, not in uniform, same result? Maybe, or do a lot of LEOs happen to be in uniform or have their badges visible at all times.

Good point, Dragonfighter. But if memory serves LEO's, even off duty have to identify themselves pretty early on (correct me if I am wrong anyone) so maybe, maybe not.

[Dragonfighter]

<SNIP>


Or what if he was off duty, on the way to the store and got out to follow the suspicious person while calling it in. No gun or badge showing, not in uniform, same result? Maybe, or do a lot of LEOs happen to be in uniform or have their badges visible at all times.

Good point, Dragonfighter. But if memory serves LEO's, even off duty have to identify themselves pretty early on (correct me if I am wrong anyone) so maybe, maybe not.

I would think this true except the initial action was not confrontational, he was "tailing" for lack of a better word. An LEO wouldn't have the need to ID themselves at this point but probably would when they were confronted as GZ was. If anything, recent events in Southeast Dallas demonstrate that a uniform, training or being obviously armed is no guarantee against assault.

[baldeagle]

The Zimmerman family has put up a website to tell their story. http://robertandgladys.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It will tear your heart out. What has been done to this family is beyond imagination.

[philip964]

Treyvon's mom has requested money from the State victim's fund. They have told her she is eligible.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/ ... 6-11-11-41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Michael Savage a conservative talk show host and author, on his radio show repeated recently the comment that the 911 operator ordered Zimmerman not to follow Treyvon. "We don't need you to do that" is not an order to not do something.

[mamabearCali]

This is all about the $$ for TM's family. They have behaved in a manner I find most reprehensible.

[philip964]

This is all about the $$ for TM's family. They have behaved in a manner I find most reprehensible.

I still don't know an answer to a question. Did Treyvon's mom attend the son's funeral? For some reason I got the impression or read somewhere that she did not. Does anyone know for sure?

[recaffeination]

This is all about the $$ for TM's family. They have behaved in a manner I find most reprehensible.

It's all about the Benjamins. Their choice of lawyers made that obvious early.

[MasterOfNone]

Treyvon's mom has requested money from the State victim's fund. They have told her she is eligible.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/ ... 6-11-11-41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Michael Savage a conservative talk show host and author, on his radio show repeated recently the comment that the 911 operator ordered Zimmerman not to follow Treyvon. "We don't need you to do that" is not an order to not do something.

Has it been established that Martin is a crime victim?

[The Annoyed Man]

The Zimmerman family has put up a website to tell their story. http://robertandgladys.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It will tear your heart out. What has been done to this family is beyond imagination.

I note that George Zimmerman and I have the same birthday. Not an important factoid or anything....just personally interesting to me.