'Loophole' in CHL law??

[tacticool]

When I hear "loophole in the CHL law", I usually think of Texas Government Code 411.1711, and the loopholes in 46.035(h-1) and 46.15(a)(4) through (a)(8).

[rom]

I agree with Charles. The TX CHL cost and requirements need to be reduced. AZ is a lot cheaper and accepts almost any handgun training class, such as NRA Basic Pistol, to satisfy the training requirement. FL has a similar training requirement and both AZ and FL have numerous reciprocal states. The criminal history requirements in both AZ and FL are much more reasonable as well. AZ pretty much goes by federal law so only felony convictions or domestic violence misdemeanor convictions would prohibit one from getting a CHL as far as criminal history is concerned. Of course AZ also has Constitutional Carry as well ... I don't think we'll get that any time soon in TX.

I'd like to see CHL reform as the top priority for the TSRA in 2013.

[AEA]

He said (and I would agree) that you lose a lot by not being in a class...the ability of asking questions and the interactions of the other students asking questions and posing scenarios.

I too cannot agree.......
This is why on my 2nd renewal I was able to select a "renewal only" class and eliminate all the 1st timer questions/answers that are a waste of my time.

If I had thought about it on my 1st renewal, I would have searched for a "renewal only class" then too........but I didn't even know they existed back then (if they did).

So I agree, that at least the 2nd and 4th renewals should be able to do something online (mainly for Law updates) as we have already proven the ability to shoot well several times.

[wgoforth]

He said (and I would agree) that you lose a lot by not being in a class...the ability of asking questions and the interactions of the other students asking questions and posing scenarios.

I too cannot agree.......
This is why on my 2nd renewal I was able to select a "renewal only" class and eliminate all the 1st timer questions/answers that are a waste of my time.

If I had thought about it on my 1st renewal, I would have searched for a "renewal only class" then too........but I didn't even know they existed back then (if they did).

So I agree, that at least the 2nd and 4th renewals should be able to do something online (mainly for Law updates) as we have already proven the ability to shoot well several times.

I was not speaking of renewals, however even in that I tell individuals who call that I will be glad for them to come for renewal, but I would suggest the full class at same price as the renewal. My reasoning is that all instructors come with different skills they stress in class, and that when you go through the original class, you hardly know what will later become important (you don't know that you don't know). I let them make the decision. As a preacher of over 31 years of full time preaching, I know there is a difference between being in a Bible class in which they can participate, verses just listening to a recording of the class. You have your theories of learning and I mine. The fact that you are here shows you are willing to learn beyond the classroom. Most, whether it is a church or a CHL class will only learn what they obtain in the class.

[AEA]

Understood
Just NOT for me.
My time is more important to me than sitting listening to 1st timers "What if's" that I have already heard and beat to death in the classroom and these forums to be of any benefit to me.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Knock it off. Jumping Frog is correct. Your situation hurts our position on this issue, so quit publicizing it.

Chas.

Charles, I had already made the decision to withdraw from the conversation and allow frog the last word. The fact that you would side with him and chastise me makes it necessary for me to defend my position. My post was an honest answer to the op's question based on my experiences with Tx CHL. I'm sorry if you feel that hurts our cause... at any rate it isn't appropriate for you or Frog to tell me to be quiet. I'm especially surprised you would do so after writing this in your initial post."Successfully completed "deferred adjudications" should not be considered a "conviction" for eligibility purposes". Some people might even say you're being a bit of a hypocrite by telling me not to "publicize my situation". I'm sure this isn't going to win me any popularity points but it needed to be said none the less. Shall not be infringed indeed...

The "knock it off" part of my response was referencing your personal attack on Jumping Frog. Don't do it again.

I want to change current law and I don't want you or anyone else making it harder to accomplish. There's no hypocrisy in wanting you to stop giving ammunition to our opponents.

BTW, the "some people might say you're being a bit of a hypocrite . . ." is also a personal attack, in spite of your lame attempt to camouflage it. You won't be here long at this rate.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

1) The class is already highly structured and standardized (so how would it be different to have a recorded presentation vs an instructor)

Actually, it's not standardized at all. The statute identifies the subjects that must be covered in class, but every instructor develops his/her own lesson plans. DPS posts lesson plans on two different subjects, but those are not mandatory.

2) There's no reason that other mechanisms can't be put into place for questions from students (like, say, this forum, as an example, or a phone hotline run by volunteers)

That won't work. People need to be able to ask questions, plus there's no assurance people will check any website if they don't understand something.

3) The most important role for an instructor is the "practical" portion of the test, which you're advocating eliminating/

I disagree. The shooting portion is unnecessary, but teaching Texas law (especially deadly force) is the most important part of the course, in my view.

5) If emphasis is on certifying that the CHL holder understands Texas laws regarding firearms, concealment, and force escalation, why not simply require a notarized signature from the applicant (and submitted to state) to complete the process?

People sign false affidavits every day. The goal is teaching students so they can continue to maintain the excellent track record Texas CHL have garnered, not merely putting a meaningless affidavit in someone's file.

I'm just throwing all this out for folks to chew on. I mean, if you're going to take the big step to alter the CHL requirements, I think it's important to consider the full spectrum of options, ranging from Washington style (no training required at all) to Texas style (generally the "hardest" and most-expensive in the US, when all costs are factored in).

At this point, online classes for an initial CHL class is not politically feasible. One day, I would like to see unlicensed concealed carry, but we simply aren't there yet.

Chas.

[Ameer]

CHL renewal should be at least as easy and cheap as DL renewal. Even better would be for it to be as cheap and easy as renewing voter registration, because they're both constitutional rights.

[Charles L. Cotton]

CHL renewal should be at least as easy and cheap as DL renewal.

One has nothing to do with the other

Even better would be for it to be as cheap and easy as renewing voter registration, because they're both constitutional rights.

Not yet, at least not according to the United States Supreme Court.
Chas.

[Ameer]

That's OK. Until the Texas legislature fixes the mess they made, I can tell all my friends to get a cheaper license from another state.

[jmra]

That's OK. Until the Texas legislature fixes the mess they made, I can tell all my friends to get a cheaper license from another state.

Keep telling all your friends that and you may not like the way "the mess" gets fixed.

[longtooth]

That's OK. Until the Texas legislature fixes the mess they made, I can tell all my friends to get a cheaper license from another state.

Not only may not like the way it gets fixed but those friends will not know the Texas laws effecting conceal carry. You could have a mad friend because the did not know the law here.
Texas CHL & THEN another state to add reciprocal states.

[kjolly]

Anything as important as CHL is worth your time to attend the TX class and the expense. I feel safer carrying knowing our laws and how to avoid legal problems.
How much is your freedom and assests worth?
Plus you meet some great people.

I'm also in favor of permitted Open Carry!

[JALLEN]

I'm just throwing all this out for folks to chew on. I mean, if you're going to take the big step to alter the CHL requirements, I think it's important to consider the full spectrum of options, ranging from Washington style (no training required at all) to Texas style (generally the "hardest" and most-expensive in the US, when all costs are factored in).

Texas is certainly not the hardest and most expensive in the US. In fact, it is almost as easy as getting a drivers license for a first timer.

I am one of fewer than 2000 who have had a CHL in San Diego. Most counties here are all but impossible, and a couple ARE impossible to get permits in. When I got mine, the cost was about $500, fees, instruction, testing, etc. I need 3 letters from citizens who knew me, a letter from the Board of Directors of the company and a letter from my "care partner" (fka wife, for those if you who have never been to California!) after completing a 20 page "application" fingerprints, photos, etc. Not least, I had to demonstrate "good moral character." The shooting test was somewhat more involved than the test required in Texas. I had to do the same course of fire with each of the three handguns (only those listed on the DOJ list of approved handguns) maximum I am allowed to designate on my permit by make, model and serial number, although the maximum distance to the target is 7 yards, and the course of fire is 15 rounds, 11 of which have to be inside the marked target area. No magazines may have more than ten rounds, of course, unless you can prove you owned them prior to sometime nearly 20 years ago.

The permit, when issued, was "for business purposes only." I have no idea what this means, although I suppose I must inquire of any threat whether it is business or personal. The whole process is carried out with the same enthusiasm and eagerness of a cat being given a bath, IOW they would rather not be doing it, although the Deputies I dealt with on the range were friendly good guys, gun nuts, so to speak, aficionados.

I'm looking forward to getting to Texas and getting a permit, so relaxed, efficient, inexpensive, and hassle free!

[Jumping Frog]

.... to Texas style (generally the "hardest" and most-expensive in the US, ....

Texas is certainly not the hardest and most expensive in the US. In fact, it is almost as easy as getting a drivers license for a first timer.

I am one of fewer than 2000 who have had a CHL in San Diego....

It is all perspective. Some people no longer consider California to actually be part of the U.S.

It is like its own socialist entity into itself (except for the fact that they expect the rest of us to pay for California's looming bankruptcy . . .)