None citizen with CHL buys guns, still need background check

[Aberdonian]

I'm on a bit of a spending spree and just bought another gun at Bachman Pawn and they didn't call it in. They said that I still had to show my Alien # AND three months of utility bills (I know - wacky) but that was it - walk away with new gun (CZ 75 P-01)

Aberdonian

[KBCraig]

I'm ashamed to say that this week I've had to lay into several supposedly pro-gun folks over the issue of non-citizens owning guns. It seems the Virginia Tech shooter being a resident alien seems like justification for them that "those people" ought to be banned from owning guns.

Gun control in the U.S. is racist at its roots. Even though it's no longer overtly aimed at racial minorities, in all "may issue" locations, being one of "those people" can be a real detriment to practicing your rights.

It doesn't even matter what "those people" are, whether black, Irish, Italian, Mexican, Canadian, gay, Republican, female, etc., etc.... If the person in charge can say "no" to one of "those people", he can say no to you, too.

I have stopped trying to talk about RKBA in Constitutional terms. It is a human right that stands independent of the Constitution, or the laws of any government.

Kevin

[txinvestigator]

KB,

I agree.

People are also very reactive right now. I have heard some absurd "should haves" the last couple of days.

[Lucky45]

I'm ashamed to say that this week I've had to lay into several supposedly pro-gun folks over the issue of non-citizens owning guns. It seems the Virginia Tech shooter being a resident alien seems like justification for them that "those people" ought to be banned from owning guns.

I think one of the new info that is coming out is that the guy has a couple mental episodes. I think that is where he kinda got through the loop hole in obtaining the guns. I think for TX CHL they have "mental episodes" as a disqualifier for obtaining a CHL. I don't know VA law, but if states could cross check people with the "NUT HOUSE" when purchasing guns or CHL then you could cut out a large percentage of these unstable people to begin with.
That could be a change they make in their procedures to have ATF cross check applicants with the NUT HOUSE.

[txinvestigator]

I'm ashamed to say that this week I've had to lay into several supposedly pro-gun folks over the issue of non-citizens owning guns. It seems the Virginia Tech shooter being a resident alien seems like justification for them that "those people" ought to be banned from owning guns.

I think one of the new info that is coming out is that the guy has a couple mental episodes. I think that is where he kinda got through the loop hole in obtaining the guns. I think for TX CHL they have "mental episodes" as a disqualifier for obtaining a CHL. I don't know VA law, but if states could cross check people with the "NUT HOUSE" when purchasing guns or CHL then you could cut out a large percentage of these unstable people to begin with.
That could be a change they make in their procedures to have ATF cross check applicants with the NUT HOUSE.

Gun Purchases don't go thru the ATF. The FBI does them.

The 4473 asks if you have ever been adjudicated as mentally defective. However, they don't ask about being diagnosed with specific conditions or prescribed medication for specific conditions like the CHL does.

There is no database available to LE agencies of medical records of private mental treatment facilities.

[Geister]

Yes, as far as the records are concerned, the mental issue only comes up if a court of law had something to do with your treatment.

[Lucky45]

txinvestigator wrote:

Gun Purchases don't go thru the ATF. The FBI does them.

The 4473 asks if you have ever been adjudicated as mentally defective. However, they don't ask about being diagnosed with specific conditions or prescribed medication for specific conditions like the CHL does.

You are right once again. Let me rephrase myself.

The TRANSFER of a firearm from a Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL...ie, gun dealer) to a PURCHASER (Average Joe) goes through the ATF. Since part of their job is the enforcement of Federal requirements for gun purchases, then the FFL has to adhere to certain procedures.
One of those procedures is the execution of ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record). Federally licensed dealers must comply with the Brady law prior to the transfer of any firearm to a non-licensed individual.
[18 U.S.C. 922(t), 27 CFR 478.102 ]

Part of the Brady Law has the requirement for licensees to initiate background checks of individuals to whom firearms are transferred by contacting the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

NICS is operated by the FBI. Licensees initiate NICS checks through the State point of contact (POC) and not always NICS as some states act as a point of contact. In some States, the POC conducts background checks for all firearms transactions. In other States, licensees must contact the POC for hand-gun transactions and the FBI for long gun transactions. In some POC States, NICS checks for pawn redemptions are handled by the FBI.



Thanks for the correction.

[txinvestigator]

Fair to say, " regulated by ATF and backgrounds run thru the FBI in Texas?

[Stupid]

I know. I dealt with Bachman a number of times, no problem on that aspect.

Anyways, I got my gun, even though it costed me more gas. I didn't lecture them on gun law as I got my gun anyway and in a rush to go back to work.

I'm on a bit of a spending spree and just bought another gun at Bachman Pawn and they didn't call it in. They said that I still had to show my Alien # AND three months of utility bills (I know - wacky) but that was it - walk away with new gun (CZ 75 P-01)

Aberdonian

[carlson1]

The 4473 has always made me laugh. It is like filling out an application and writing down references. Who is going to write down someone who is not going to say good things? I never understood the small LE departments that would not even ask neighbors and creditors about a potential officer?

[Lucky45]

Fair to say, " regulated by ATF and backgrounds run thru the FBI in Texas?

Fair to say,as earlier, gun purchases goes through the ATF and FBI are just used as background checkers. As noted before, not all states go through FBI.
So ATF makes final decision on who gets a gun, since they issue licenses to gun dealers. They just use info from FBI (by law) to make their decision.

[txinvestigator]

Fair to say, " regulated by ATF and backgrounds run thru the FBI in Texas?

Fair to say,as earlier, gun purchases goes through the ATF and FBI are just used as background checkers. As noted before, not all states go through FBI.
So ATF makes final decision on who gets a gun, since they issue licenses to gun dealers. They just use info from FBI (by law) to make their decision.

I agree mostly, but not that the ATF makes the final decision on who gets a gun. I don't follow that logic. ATF makes no decision past the licensing of dealers.

[pbandjelly]

KB,

I agree.

*dies of disbelief*

gotta write this day down on my calender!

srsly, one of my main hopes is that South Korean national students don't face an emotion based backlash because of this incident.

as an aside, I had a South Korean gentleman named Tae Hoon as a roommate in the dorms, whilst I was in college. He taught me a fair amount about Buddhism (?sp?) (the largest Buddhist shine in the U.S. is located in Hawaii, I believe) and life in South Korea (IIRC, they have a mandatory draft for males), and I helped him advance his grasp on the English Language. I, to this day, value the friendship that he and I shared, residing in a dorm the size of modest living room.
goes to show, crazy don't know no color.

[Lucky45]

I agree mostly, but not that the ATF makes the final decision on who gets a gun. I don't follow that logic. ATF makes no decision past the licensing of dealers.

Ok, so I guess we can say the same thing for TX DPS and CHL Instructors. If my coworker just fills out the CHL forms and pays an instructor to sign them and turn in. Coworker never attended a class or range test and gets a CHL license. If DPS finds out, are you saying that they don't make a final decision past the licensing of the instructor? Therefore they can't revoke my coworkers license.

I think this scenario has happened plenty of times where instructor weren't performing to DPS requirements and they went back and revoked the CHL licenses of previous students. So where does the final decision making stand?

[txinvestigator]

I agree mostly, but not that the ATF makes the final decision on who gets a gun. I don't follow that logic. ATF makes no decision past the licensing of dealers.

Ok, so I guess we can say the same thing for TX DPS and CHL Instructors. If my coworker just fills out the CHL forms and pays an instructor to sign them and turn in. Coworker never attended a class or range test and gets a CHL license. If DPS finds out, are you saying that they don't make a final decision past the licensing of the instructor? Therefore they can't revoke my coworkers license.

I think this scenario has happened plenty of times where instructor weren't performing to DPS requirements and they went back and revoked the CHL licenses of previous students. So where does the final decision making stand?

You CHL comparison is invalid. CHL instructors are not a government regulating agency.

DPS is the approving agency, and can revoke. The ATF cannot "revoke" the FBI clearance. They CAN file enforcement action against a person who either lies on the application or is issued a proceed in error and possess a firearm illegally.

However, they are not involved in the "approval" process for a person to buy a firearm, unless you consider being regulatory a form of approval.

If DPS issues a CHL by mistake to someone who is not qualified under federal law, and the person buys a firearm bypassing the NICS, then ATF can file criminal charges on the person for possession. Does that too, make ATF in the CHL approval process?

Of course not. Same thing with FFL approvals from the FBI.