1.6 billion rounds of ammunition

[G26ster]

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

[67SS]

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

[G26ster]

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

Not sure what you mean here. The pistols issued to Infantrymen are not issued so they can fight their way to a rifle. It's the only personal defense weapon issued to them.

[K.Mooneyham]

I received the following response to an email I sent to the office of my Congresswoman, Kay Granger. You can form you own opinion about it.

Dear Mr. Mooneyham:

I appreciate you contacting me about the purchase of ammunition by federal agencies. I wanted to take a moment to address your concerns.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) purchased ammunition for the U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers due to the shortage of bullets. The ammunition is specifically intended to be used by the Transportation and Security Administration, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Customs and Border Protection and the Secret Service, which all have the need for major protective services. Ammunition is often ordered in large quantities because it can be used throughout multiple federal agencies and at a reduced price.

Other organizations within the federal government have special agents that have full law enforcement authority, including making necessary arrests and obtaining warrants. The Social Security Administration (SSA) employs almost 300 special agents and criminal investigators with law enforcement authority in 66 offices across the country. They must be fully prepared should they ever have to make an arrest.

Many constituents expressed concern that the National Weather Service was purchasing ammunition. Please note that a clerical error was made and this ammunition was for National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's (NOAA) Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement. This office protects fish stocks from depletion and marine mammals from extinction as well as those who make their livelihoods fishing, the recreational fishers, and the health of seafood consumers. Like other agencies, the ammunition will be used by enforcement agents during their firearm qualifications and training.

It is important to know that each agency with law enforcement officers must follow strict guidelines and that all purchases are recorded and available to the public. I understand your concern for fiscal restraint, and please know that I will follow this situation closely to ensure these purchases are being used as needed.

Thank you for contacting me. Please continue to keep me informed on the issues that are important to you. For more information on my work in Congress, or to sign up to receive my e-newsletter, please feel free to visit the 12th District's website at http://kaygranger.house.gov" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.


Sincerely,


Kay Granger
Member of Congress

[old farmer]

we have way too many armed "federal agents"

NOAA are armed "federal agents". Really. Ms Kay Granger Member of Congress

[K.Mooneyham]

we have way too many armed "federal agents"

NOAA are armed "federal agents". Really. Ms Kay Granger Member of Congress

Well, the way she (or her staffer) writes it, it seems a part of that agency are like "Fish and Game" officers. Still curious how many of them are doing the sort of work where they are confronting dangerous folks in situations that require the use of firearms.

[67SS]

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

Not sure what you mean here. The pistols issued to Infantrymen are not issued so they can fight their way to a rifle. It's the only personal defense weapon issued to them.

where are you going with this.. the M9 in not a standard issue, to everyone, only select few.. which is what I said in the beginning.... the M9 is not a main battle weapon...

so you whole argument is that Its for personal defense..(a measure of last resort) thanks for agreeing with me.. now back to bullets.

[G26ster]

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

Not sure what you mean here. The pistols issued to Infantrymen are not issued so they can fight their way to a rifle. It's the only personal defense weapon issued to them.

where are you going with this.. the M9 in not a standard issue, to everyone, only select few.. which is what I said in the beginning.... the M9 is not a main battle weapon...

so you whole argument is that Its for personal defense..(a measure of last resort) thanks for agreeing with me.. now back to bullets.

Where I was going with this was to dispute the part of your original post when you said, "I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4." This quote, on its face, is untrue. My point was that the Infantry IS issued a sidearm, even though it is to a select few. I never said it was a primary weapon issued to all Infantrymen. Also you used the analogy, "I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary...." So, my other point was that the sidearm issued to the "select few" is not to fight their way to a rifle, but rather for defense if needed. So your analogy of using a pistol to fight your way to your rifle has no relation to military combat.

I realize your main points were about ammunition statistics, but you made erroneous statements about Infantry sidearms and their purpose, and that's what I was addressing. If I have offended you, my apologies, but I am just speaking from my experience as an Infantryman.

[67SS]

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

Not sure what you mean here. The pistols issued to Infantrymen are not issued so they can fight their way to a rifle. It's the only personal defense weapon issued to them.

where are you going with this.. the M9 in not a standard issue, to everyone, only select few.. which is what I said in the beginning.... the M9 is not a main battle weapon...

so you whole argument is that Its for personal defense..(a measure of last resort) thanks for agreeing with me.. now back to bullets.

Where I was going with this was to dispute the part of your original post when you said, "I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4." This quote, on its face, is untrue. My point was that the Infantry IS issued a sidearm, even though it is to a select few. I never said it was a primary weapon issued to all Infantrymen. Also you used the analogy, "I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary...." So, my other point was that the sidearm issued to the "select few" is not to fight their way to a rifle, but rather for defense if needed. So your analogy of using a pistol to fight your way to your rifle has no relation to military combat.

I realize your main points were about ammunition statistics, but you made erroneous statements about Infantry sidearms and their purpose, and that's what I was addressing. If I have offended you, my apologies, but I am just speaking from my experience as an Infantryman.

ok.. in your squad... how many total members, of those members how many have side arms...of a standard squad... ... we are dealing with semantics.... yes its a standard issue of the army, no it is not issued to every one... This the exact point I was making... there are far more m4/a2 platforms issued than m9 sidearms..

[G26ster]

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

Not sure what you mean here. The pistols issued to Infantrymen are not issued so they can fight their way to a rifle. It's the only personal defense weapon issued to them.

where are you going with this.. the M9 in not a standard issue, to everyone, only select few.. which is what I said in the beginning.... the M9 is not a main battle weapon...

so you whole argument is that Its for personal defense..(a measure of last resort) thanks for agreeing with me.. now back to bullets.

Where I was going with this was to dispute the part of your original post when you said, "I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4." This quote, on its face, is untrue. My point was that the Infantry IS issued a sidearm, even though it is to a select few. I never said it was a primary weapon issued to all Infantrymen. Also you used the analogy, "I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary...." So, my other point was that the sidearm issued to the "select few" is not to fight their way to a rifle, but rather for defense if needed. So your analogy of using a pistol to fight your way to your rifle has no relation to military combat.

I realize your main points were about ammunition statistics, but you made erroneous statements about Infantry sidearms and their purpose, and that's what I was addressing. If I have offended you, my apologies, but I am just speaking from my experience as an Infantryman.

ok.. in your squad... how many total members, of those members how many have side arms...of a standard squad... ... we are dealing with semantics.... yes its a standard issue of the army, no it is not issued to every one... This the exact point I was making... there are far more m4/a2 platforms issued than m9 sidearms..

Of course there are more rifles issued, and I was not disputing that, but I was not addressing your "point." I was addressing a specific statement you made that was untrue, when it comes to Infantry, when you said "the Infantry is not issued a sidearm." It matters little what your overall message was, or whether you actually meant to say that Infantry is issued few sidearms. I was correcting a single statement you made. Nothing more.

[Andrew]

we have way too many armed "federal agents"

NOAA are armed "federal agents". Really. Ms Kay Granger Member of Congress

Well, the way she (or her staffer) writes it, it seems a part of that agency are like "Fish and Game" officers. Still curious how many of them are doing the sort of work where they are confronting dangerous folks in situations that require the use of firearms.

Here's some info:
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/faqs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[67SS]

ok.. in your squad... how many total members, of those members how many have side arms...of a standard squad... ... we are dealing with semantics.... yes its a standard issue of the army, no it is not issued to every one... This the exact point I was making... there are far more m4/a2 platforms issued than m9 sidearms..

Of course there are more rifles issued, and I was not disputing that, but I was not addressing your "point." I was addressing a specific statement you made that was untrue, when it comes to Infantry, when you said "the Infantry is not issued a sidearm." It matters little what your overall message was, or whether you actually meant to say that Infantry is issued few sidearms. I was correcting a single statement you made. Nothing more.[/quote]


you need to go back to the original statement and stop using your own definition... I said and I requote....

its not considered a primary weapon

... you, your self, said it was/is a defensive weapon..

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4.... [/quote

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

]... again semantics... I should have injected the average/generally/SGt and above? or the anything but a rifleman? how about any one that doesn't carry a M4..... below the rank of sgt... I see where you got this oops my bad..... but I also know your just picking my statement apart... so have fun..

in your squad... how many carry a m4, with a side arm.. in your squad... how many riflemen are there? in your squad... a 5/7/9/10/11/12 man squad. how many carry side arms...

[G26ster]

ok.. in your squad... how many total members, of those members how many have side arms...of a standard squad... ... we are dealing with semantics.... yes its a standard issue of the army, no it is not issued to every one... This the exact point I was making... there are far more m4/a2 platforms issued than m9 sidearms..

Of course there are more rifles issued, and I was not disputing that, but I was not addressing your "point." I was addressing a specific statement you made that was untrue, when it comes to Infantry, when you said "the Infantry is not issued a sidearm." It matters little what your overall message was, or whether you actually meant to say that Infantry is issued few sidearms. I was correcting a single statement you made. Nothing more.

you need to go back to the original statement and stop using your own definition... I said and I requote....

its not considered a primary weapon

... you, your self, said it was/is a defensive weapon..

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4.... [/quote

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

]

... again semantics... I should have injected the average/generally/SGt and above? or the anything but a rifleman? how about any one that doesn't carry a M4..... below the rank of sgt... I see where you got this oops my bad..... but I also know your just picking my statement apart... so have fun..

in your squad... how many carry a m4, with a side arm.. in your squad... how many riflemen are there? in your squad... a 5/7/9/10/11/12 man squad. how many carry side arms...

I'm not picking anything apart.

But, to answer your question, I can only speak from MY experience. As a squad leader of a 81mm mortar crew in a "straight-leg" Infantry platoon, I was issued a rifle. As a squad leader of the same in a "mechanized Infantry" platoon I was issues a pistol. In both cases the Platoon Leader was issued a pistol. In the rifle platoons, the platoon leaders had a pistol, the machine gunners (automatic rifleman) in each of the rifle platoons had pistols, the recoiless rifle gunners had pistols. This changes over the years depending on weapons/personnel in the TO&E of a unit. Units now include grenadiers and designated marksmen (snipers). The grenadier is armed with a rifle and the sniper with a pistol. This also does not preclude picking up whatever you can on the battlefield. Again, it's based on the TO&E and other factors.

So the fact that the ratio of rifles to pistols is higher for rifles, does not make your statement "the Infantry is not issued a sidearm" true, and that was the only statement you made that I was addressing. I am not trying to "have fun" with you, nit pick you, or anything else other than to point out that sidearms ARE, and have been, issued to the Infantry and your statement that they weren't was false, regardless of the point you were trying to make.

So why don't we agree to disagree, and leave it there.

[E.Marquez]

I think this is thread drift, but related so figured i'd chime in.
1: Yes the US army issues pistols to infantrymen.
2: Yes generally it is a select few by duty position or duties assigned.
3: No idea other then movie quotes, or nonsense being passed on from one misinformed leader to there Soldiers, where someone would get the idea the pistol is issued for defensive use only
Field Manual 3-23.35 states in part "The main use of the pistol is to engage an enemy at close range with quick, accurate fire." The word "defensive " does not exist in the entirety of the manual.
The Pistol is issued to engage and kill the enemy, it may be drawn as a back up weapon, it may be used as a primary personal weapon for a vehicle gunner, it may be a back up weapon that is the proper choice as a primary for the task or mission. And many times it is issued to the Senior enlisted or officers that are too darn lazy to carry the weapon they should.

I've carried both the last thee tours. and at times a shot gun, and at times an EBR, and at times other long range rifles.

What this has to do with 1.6 billion rounds purchased by the US government for training Im not sure.. but there it is.

[G26ster]

I think this is thread drift, but related so figured i'd chime in.
1: Yes the US army issues pistols to infantrymen.
2: Yes generally it is a select few by duty position or duties assigned.
3: No idea other then movie quotes, or nonsense being passed on from one misinformed leader to there Soldiers, where someone would get the idea the pistol is issued for defensive use only
Field Manual 3-23.35 states in part "The main use of the pistol is to engage an enemy at close range with quick, accurate fire." The word "defensive " does not exist in the entirety of the manual.
The Pistol is issued to engage and kill the enemy, it may be drawn as a back up weapon, it may be used as a primary personal weapon for a vehicle gunner, it may be a back up weapon that is the proper choice as a primary for the task or mission. And many times it is issued to the Senior enlisted or officers that are too darn lazy to carry the weapon they should.

I've carried both the last thee tours. and at times a shot gun, and at times an EBR, and at times other long range rifles.

What this has to do with 1.6 billion rounds purchased by the US government for training Im not sure.. but there it is.

Yes, and I apologize Sgt. Major and our forum members for the thread drift, and for the use of the term "defensive," as it is an outdated term. My response was to a graph posted by 67SS as to Army small arms contracts and the erroneous statement about sidearms not being issued to Infantry. I should have just ignored it.