Expandable Batons

[fortworthdude]

I have a CHL. I know it is legal to purchase an expandable baton in Texas. What are the laws with reference to carrying and or using one. There are times when protection is needed and pulling a gun with all the ramifications that go with it are just not neccessary. Example the fericious dog I have talked about in the past. It seems that the laws are highly contradictory and confusing. Can anyone help to simplify this issue. Thanks

[RottenApple]

It's illegal to carry a baton.

Texas Expandable Baton Laws & Club Laws
§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially
designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious
bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and
includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.

§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on
or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under
this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or
issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

But using deadly force (ie - shooting) an attacking dog is not confusing at all.

PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

[suthdj]

It's illegal to carry a baton.

Texas Expandable Baton Laws & Club Laws
§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially
designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious
bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and
includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.

§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on
or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under
this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or
issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

But using deadly force (ie - shooting) an attacking dog is not confusing at all.

PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

just to be the devils advocate.

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another"

would mean I can shoot the owner as he would be "another" the dog is not. Not so clear is it.

[RottenApple]

just to be the devils advocate.

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another"

would mean I can shoot the owner as he would be "another" the dog is not. Not so clear is it.

If it said "another person", I would agree with you. However in this usage, "another" is anyone/thing (such as an animal) other than the person who is justified.

I would have no problem shooting a dog who is attacking me, my loved ones, or my own dog. I'd do it without hesitation. And I certainly won't be worrying about the legal consequences. That's what I have an attorney for.

[suthdj]

just to be the devils advocate.

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another"

would mean I can shoot the owner as he would be "another" the dog is not. Not so clear is it.

If it said "another person", I would agree with you. However in this usage, "another" is anyone/thing (such as an animal) other than the person who is justified.

I would have no problem shooting a dog who is attacking me, my loved ones, or my own dog. I'd do it without hesitation. And I certainly won't be worrying about the legal consequences. That's what I have an attorney for.

not saying I wouldn't shoot also but I would put myself between dogs so it would have to go through me there by becoming a threat to me. I will disagree on the "another" meaning as to be another it would have to be of the same "something" and since it begins with "A person" it is implied to be another person.

[Abraham]

Having experienced numerous dog attacks while cycling, I've found pepper spray to be a most effective defensive tool - with a few caveats.

Buy effective pepper spray.

I started out carrying pepper spray I thought would be effective, but it wasn't. It was inexpensive. It was available at a local sporting goods store. I didn't realize all pepper sprays aren't created equally. I was naive. I don't remember the brand or how many Scovil units it contained, (how hot it is) but I can tell you it wasn't enough. The first time I used it was on two simultaneously attacking dogs - it didn't faze them. I was lucky they didn't keep up the chase as I doggedly peddled away from their perceived territory.

I moved up in cost and quality. The stuff I now carry contains not only pepper spray, but tear gas too. It is smoking hot! I belt carry it in a 4 oz. can using a nylon clip on holster.

At this point, I've gone through quite a number of cans of this very powerful stuff and it's only failed to turn an attacking dog a couple of times. Over the years, I've been dog attacked (I approximate) two hundred times or so, that's not too bad a failure rate... I've been long distance cycling for decades...

So, pepper spray doesn't work on ALL dogs, but it does work on most. Of course, it has to hit them in the eyes, nose, mouth, i.e. mucous membranes to be effective. I use the streaming type.

Frankly, if a carrying a baton for dog defense was legal, I wouldn't do it.

Most of us simply aren't good enough with one to defend against a serious dog/dogs attack.

You're better off carrying quality pepper spray.

Also, if you go the pepper spray route, buy some decontamination wipes too. Keep them with you.

[Moby]

My business neighbor used a .357 mag to shoot an attacking pitbull and the Sheriff went and told the dog owner he had 48 hours to get rid of the other 3 pits or his deputy's would be parked outside of his business waiting for the next dog to get out and would then arrest him for endangering the public.

I don't think any reasonable LEO would give you a hard time with a dog attack/defense situation.

[RAM4171]

46.15 makes 46.02 inapplicable for a CHL who is also carrying a firearm.I'm on my tablet now or I would include the text, I'll get it on her later.

Edited to delete 46.03

[RAM4171]

Here it is.

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;
(2) parole officers and neither section prohibits an officer from carrying a weapon in this state if the officer is:
(A) engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's duties while carrying the weapon; and
(B) in compliance with policies and procedures adopted by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice regarding the possession of a weapon by an officer while on duty;
(3) community supervision and corrections department officers appointed or employed under Section 76.004, Government Code, and neither section prohibits an officer from carrying a weapon in this state if the officer is:
(A) engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's duties while carrying the weapon; and
(B) authorized to carry a weapon under Section 76.0051, Government Code;
(4) an active judicial officer as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code, who is licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code;
(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;
(6) a district attorney, criminal district attorney, county attorney, or municipal attorney who is licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code;
(7) an assistant district attorney, assistant criminal district attorney, or assistant county attorney who is licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code;
(8) a bailiff designated by an active judicial officer as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code, who is:
(A) licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Chapter 411, Government Code; and
(B) engaged in escorting the judicial officer; or
(9) a juvenile probation officer who is authorized to carry a firearm under Section 142.006, Human Resources Code.
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a member of the armed forces or state military forces as defined by Section 431.001, Government Code, or as a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) is traveling;
(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on
the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;
(7) holds an alcoholic beverage permit or license or is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage permit or license if the person is supervising the operation of the permitted or licensed premises; or
(8) is a student in a law enforcement class engaging in an activity required as part of the class, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity and the person is:
(A) on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted; or
(B) en route between those premises and the person's residence and is carrying the weapon unloaded.
(c) The provision of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of a club does not apply to a noncommissioned security guard at an institution of higher education who carries a nightstick or similar club, and who has undergone 15 hours of training in the proper use of the club, including at least seven hours of training in the use of the club for nonviolent restraint. For the purposes of this subsection, “nonviolent restraint” means the use of reasonable force, not intended and not likely to inflict bodily injury.
(d) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of a firearm or carrying of a club do not apply to a public security officer employed by the adjutant general under Section 431.029, Government Code, in performance of official duties or while traveling to or from a place of duty.
(e) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of an illegal knife do not apply to an individual carrying a bowie knife or a sword used in a historical demonstration or in a ceremony in which the knife or sword is significant to the performance of the ceremony.
(f) Section 46.03(a)(6) does not apply to a person who possesses a firearm or club while in the actual discharge of official duties as:
TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS 47
(1) a member of the armed forces or state military forces, as defined by Section 431.001, Government Code; or
(2) an employee of a penal institution.
(g) The provisions of Sections 46.02 and 46.03 prohibiting the possession or carrying of a club do not apply to an animal control officer who holds a certificate issued under Section 829.006, Health and Safety Code, and who possesses or carries an instrument used specifically for deterring the bite of an animal while the officer is in the performance of official duties under the Health and Safety Code or is traveling to or from a place of duty.
(h) *[repealed by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., RS, HB 1815, §3.]
(i) *[repealed by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., RS, HB 1815, §3.]
(j) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of a handgun do not apply to an individual who carries a handgun as a participant in a historical reenactment performed in accordance with the rules of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission.

[StewNTexas]

I have a second line of defense against agressive dogs, but probably not the smartest thing I ever built.

I gave up bicycling, but still walk the neighborhood frequently. I have been bothered by dogs frequently, but so far have been able to keep from shooting one. I went to the hardware store and bought a long wooden hoe handle. I then drilled the unfinished end using a 9/16" drill to a depth of one foot. I then melted some old fishing weights (I do not reload) and poured the molten lead into the end of the handle. After it cooled, I cross-drilled it and inserted a properly sized rivet through the handle, smoothing it out by filing.

I now have a long walking stick, with enough weight to be able to do significant damage if I need it.

Still have a Sig for backup.

[gigag04]

I carry and am trained with a baton all the time at work, and I have yet to find a situation where I would really want to use it.



Take it back, I used it to pry a drunk lady's hands out from under her to effect an arrest, but I don't see a use in my off duty life.

[LSUTiger]

So, someone please help me out a bit.

If I am not mistaken they are not illegal to own, just not legal to carry in public? (ie. on your own property you should be OK?)

Now, from what has been posted so far about non-applicability, as long as you have a CHL and are carrying a gun it's legal to carry a baton in public?

I can see a use for it when I take the kids for a stroll in the neighborhood or riding bikes past a neighbor's house on the sidewalk.

I have never seen it, but some wild beast behind the fence barks up a storm. That thing must be huge. If it ever get loose and comes after us, its all over for him.

But, a baton might be a better option than a gun depending on the threat and other situational factors, (eventhough the use of both may be justified), if its an optional defense. A baton is still a deadly weapon, one whack on the head could kill someone/something.

[RAM4171]

I beilieve that I did answer your question with my previous post. By the letter of the law you are legal to carry a batton due to PC46.15. Now the question of "should you" is up to you. Personally I prefer a wooden walking stick for my own reasons, one is that I enjoy making them.

[LSUTiger]

Thanks for confirming what I thought I read. A few months ago I was in Top Brass and was listening in on a store employee and non LEO customer talking about this same issue. The store employee basically told the other customer batons were a no go for public carry, which is what I also thought at the time.

Did it change recently or was it always this way and I just failed to educate myself?

[gthaustex]

This issue comes up occasionally and I think the general consensus is that by the letter of the law, all of PC 46.02 does not apply if you are a CHL and carrying a handgun of the proper type. Therefore, anything else listed in PC 46.02 also would not apply (batons, knives, etc.). However, from my discussions with LEOs and others, my take is that a person would be in trouble for having anything other than a gun. Basically, no one has volunteered to be a test case to use this argument yet.

Here is another recent thread on this issue:

viewtopic.php?f=125&t=61351&p=753610&hi ... ry#p753610