Air rifles....

[The Annoyed Man]

Just throwing this out there..

it may not be a firearm by definition, it may not be illegal to shoot a pellet/BB gun in your town/housing district...

but speaking from experience, the use of a pellet/BB gun to take any game in the State of Texas is illegal.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/regulations ... unt/means/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can take Non Game critters.. but must have a valid hunting license..

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/regulations ... t/nongame/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Duly noted, and thanks for posting that.

Maybe other than killing a nuisance pest animal in my back yard..........of which there aren't that many if you don't count the occasional hornet, and even they earn their keep by killing webworms...........I am not really that interested in using the air rifle as a hunting implement UNLESS it is really appropriate for the particular hunt, or unless I simply can't get any more ammo, and the world as we know it has radically altered.......in which case TPWD might be irrelevant. I am more interested in the rifle as an addition to my preps. Every squirrel or rabbit or pigeon taken for the larder with a pellet is a round of .22 LR saved for more important use. And also, in a time when .22 and centerfire rifle ammo is hard to come by, it ought to be easy to stock up on pellets, and to get some "range time" in my back yard. The back of my property is backed by a railroad tie retaining wall, and the distance from my patio table to the retaining wall is only about 15 yards.......not very far, but far enough to have some fun punching paper.

The main thing is that the cost of entry, even for a legitimate hunting/varmint air rifle, is so darn reasonable that it seems like an increasingly good idea. That's why I'm so interested in what all of your experiences have been like, and my two primary questions are: A) if you've been satisfied with your purchase, and B) given the models currently available, would you still buy the same gun you bought, or would you buy an upgraded model?

The big question for me is velocity. These .17 caliber pellets don't weigh bupkis, so it takes velocity to make them into a serious killing gun. That's why I'm not so much interested in a 1,000 fps rifle, when for $100 to $150 more I can get a 1,400 fps rifle. But am I obsessing too much about it if I'm thinking of paying $180 more for a 1,400 fps rifle over a 1,250 fps rifle? Is that extra 150 fps worth an extra $1.20 for each fps more? My natural inclination is to say "yes it is," but because I am a complete novice when it comes to these things, particularly for killing small game, do you guys think it is worth it? Will it make the rifle that much more lethal, or is it all just eyewash?

[RPB]

Got me thinkin' about these things too now
doesn't sound like my brother's old Daisy BB gun

saw some thing about shooting a bison (not that I would)
Big Bore 909S .45 Cal 780 FPS
.45 cal. ????
http://www.airgundepot.com/samyang-909-rifle.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They say it's loud ... seems like a muffler on tailpipe of a compressed burst of air and stuff shouldn't need BATF approval ?

Looks like some come with them already, any reason one couldn't make a muffler?

[BigGuy]

!!! WARNING !!!
Lots of pig blood.
First actual shot at about 2:25. Lots of yada yada yada til then.

[youtube][/youtube]

[grumble]

In NJ, you must have a FID (Firearms ID card) to purchase ANY bb/pellet gun. They are considered firearms in that lovely state.

I would guess that 75% of the air rifles owned in NJ were purchased over the border in PA where they're out on the shelf at the Target store and no ID is required (as it should be).

[eureka40]

We had a water moccasin problem a few years ago so I was looking for something I could use in the neighborhood. I got tired of killing them with a hoe, I'm getting too old for that. Anyway I ran across a Gamo Shadow Express. It shoots 22 cal pellets but here's the kicker. It also shoots 22 cal shot shells. This guy will turn snake brain into huevos rancheros. There is 19 #9 shot pellets in each shell.

Now having said all that, I think they had a problem with a seal blowing out on it and it is not made any more. Mine works fine and may have been one of the last ones made. It is very safe to shoot in the neighborhood, very quiet, I have a lifetime supply of shells too.

[Topbuilder]

AM,
I spent alot of time researching air rifles. I have a Beeman R7. Love it. Very accurate. Easy to cock. Limited range though.
If I were going to get a full power rifle it would be a Beeman HW97 or an Air arms TX200. Under lever design is nice. Keeps the barrel fixed.
Crossman,Gamo, no. I feel like you are looking for "Firearm" quality... no need to look here.
Watch the fps... at 1300-1400 they sound the same as a .22.

These people always treat me right - http://www.straightshooters.com/air-arms-guns.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One Nice thing about air rifles, you can shoot indoors. Make a trap using electricians duct seal to stop and catch the lead. You only need about a 1 1/4" thick layer. Even when you stack pellets, no richochets. And no noise...
I did a test once, 100 shots through the same hole. The lead never penetrated the putty. Just kept bonding to each other.
If you take the plunge, pm me and I will send some pics of my trap design.

[rwg3]

AM,
I spent alot of time researching air rifles. I have a Beeman R7. Love it. Very accurate. Easy to cock. Limited range though.
If I were going to get a full power rifle it would be a Beeman HW97 or an Air arms TX200. Under lever design is nice. Keeps the barrel fixed.
Crossman,Gamo, no. I feel like you are looking for "Firearm" quality... no need to look here.
Watch the fps... at 1300-1400 they sound the same as a .22.

These people always treat me right - http://www.straightshooters.com/air-arms-guns.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One Nice thing about air rifles, you can shoot indoors. Make a trap using electricians duct seal to stop and catch the lead. You only need about a 1 1/4" thick layer. Even when you stack pellets, no richochets. And no noise...
I did a test once, 100 shots through the same hole. The lead never penetrated the putty. Just kept bonding to each other.
If you take the plunge, pm me and I will send some pics of my trap design.

Excellent info and link. Thanks for sharing

[Wodathunkit]

Lets get one!

http://www.lewisandclarktrail.com/lewisairgun.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Steve133]

The big question for me is velocity. These .17 caliber pellets don't weigh bupkis, so it takes velocity to make them into a serious killing gun. That's why I'm not so much interested in a 1,000 fps rifle, when for $100 to $150 more I can get a 1,400 fps rifle. But am I obsessing too much about it if I'm thinking of paying $180 more for a 1,400 fps rifle over a 1,250 fps rifle? Is that extra 150 fps worth an extra $1.20 for each fps more? My natural inclination is to say "yes it is," but because I am a complete novice when it comes to these things, particularly for killing small game, do you guys think it is worth it? Will it make the rifle that much more lethal, or is it all just eyewash?

Disclaimer: I don't actually own a "serious" air gun - however, I did a lot of research on them, since I was recently seriously considering buying one for many of the same reasons that you cite (ultimately decided to focus on airsoft as being more useful for the IDPA/3-Gun competitions I'm trying to get into more). Oddly enough, that also gave me a chance to use that aerospace engineering degree that I haven't used that much in the past 5 years....

For "stopping power," you need kinetic energy, which as a function of mass and velocity, means that you want more speed if you're limited to a certain projectile mass. But there are some weird aerodynamic quirks to consider as well. As someone else already pointed out, once you get above 1,200 fps, you're going to be supersonic under most atmospheric conditions, and that means more noise - sonic boom of the projectile and all that. This isn't a LOT more noise, but enough to notice if "quietness" is something you're really looking for.

The other thing that might bite you is stability. The trans-sonic velocity regime (above ~900 fps or so under most conditions) introduces all sorts of disruptions in airflow, which hurts stability, and obviously impairs accuracy. Wikipedia actually states that 800 - 900 fps is often considered a good compromise between accuracy and power, but, well... That's Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt.

What I eventually settled on was accepting a somewhat conservative upper limit on velocity, then making up for it with mass - I was looking very seriously at .22 cal guns over .17. I think .17 is more of a "default" caliber used for competition and whatnot, but .22 is used a lot by hunters. FYI, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with spring guns, but I was looking for gas-powered rifles - fewer issues with mechanical fatigue and fewer moving parts in general. The pre-charged guns have great performance, but a higher front-end cost than I wanted. I'd just about decided on a CO2 rifle made by Hammerli when I scrapped the whole idea.

Just throwing some information out there, do what you want with it. I hate to waste good research.

[The Annoyed Man]

AM,
I spent alot of time researching air rifles. I have a Beeman R7. Love it. Very accurate. Easy to cock. Limited range though.
If I were going to get a full power rifle it would be a Beeman HW97 or an Air arms TX200. Under lever design is nice. Keeps the barrel fixed.
Crossman,Gamo, no. I feel like you are looking for "Firearm" quality... no need to look here.
Watch the fps... at 1300-1400 they sound the same as a .22.

These people always treat me right - http://www.straightshooters.com/air-arms-guns.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One Nice thing about air rifles, you can shoot indoors. Make a trap using electricians duct seal to stop and catch the lead. You only need about a 1 1/4" thick layer. Even when you stack pellets, no richochets. And no noise...
I did a test once, 100 shots through the same hole. The lead never penetrated the putty. Just kept bonding to each other.
If you take the plunge, pm me and I will send some pics of my trap design.

Those Air Arms guns look really nice. The wood stocks are beautiful. Unfortunately, I'd have to sell one of my centerfire rifles to pay for one, so that's not going to happen. I'll probably buy something much less expensive as my "entry-level gun" into the air rifle market. Maybe later I might step up and invest in a really nice one, just like I did with my very first bolt-action centerfire rifle—an inexpensive Ruger I purchased in the early 1990s, which was later replaced with a very nice Remington 700. I was really impressed with the power of the .45 caliber air rifle in BigGuy's video, although it looks like that thing is longer than my 91/30 Mosin with the bayonet mounted, but I'm not so much interested in an air rifle as a primary hunting rifle for larger game......although that could change.

Is there any inherent advantage of a cocking lever with a fixed barrel over a hinged barrel like the Gamo has?

[The Annoyed Man]

The big question for me is velocity. These .17 caliber pellets don't weigh bupkis, so it takes velocity to make them into a serious killing gun. That's why I'm not so much interested in a 1,000 fps rifle, when for $100 to $150 more I can get a 1,400 fps rifle. But am I obsessing too much about it if I'm thinking of paying $180 more for a 1,400 fps rifle over a 1,250 fps rifle? Is that extra 150 fps worth an extra $1.20 for each fps more? My natural inclination is to say "yes it is," but because I am a complete novice when it comes to these things, particularly for killing small game, do you guys think it is worth it? Will it make the rifle that much more lethal, or is it all just eyewash?

Disclaimer: I don't actually own a "serious" air gun - however, I did a lot of research on them, since I was recently seriously considering buying one for many of the same reasons that you cite (ultimately decided to focus on airsoft as being more useful for the IDPA/3-Gun competitions I'm trying to get into more). Oddly enough, that also gave me a chance to use that aerospace engineering degree that I haven't used that much in the past 5 years....

For "stopping power," you need kinetic energy, which as a function of mass and velocity, means that you want more speed if you're limited to a certain projectile mass. But there are some weird aerodynamic quirks to consider as well. As someone else already pointed out, once you get above 1,200 fps, you're going to be supersonic under most atmospheric conditions, and that means more noise - sonic boom of the projectile and all that. This isn't a LOT more noise, but enough to notice if "quietness" is something you're really looking for.

The other thing that might bite you is stability. The trans-sonic velocity regime (above ~900 fps or so under most conditions) introduces all sorts of disruptions in airflow, which hurts stability, and obviously impairs accuracy. Wikipedia actually states that 800 - 900 fps is often considered a good compromise between accuracy and power, but, well... That's Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt.

What I eventually settled on was accepting a somewhat conservative upper limit on velocity, then making up for it with mass - I was looking very seriously at .22 cal guns over .17. I think .17 is more of a "default" caliber used for competition and whatnot, but .22 is used a lot by hunters. FYI, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with spring guns, but I was looking for gas-powered rifles - fewer issues with mechanical fatigue and fewer moving parts in general. The pre-charged guns have great performance, but a higher front-end cost than I wanted. I'd just about decided on a CO2 rifle made by Hammerli when I scrapped the whole idea.

Just throwing some information out there, do what you want with it. I hate to waste good research.

I had considered the effect of going supersonic. I note that the Gamo videos don't claim that the suppressed gun is silent. They claim that game can't detect where it's coming from........which is pretty much exactly what happens with a suppressed AR15 or AR10. It's quieter for the shooter, and the diffused report makes directional location difficult, but there is still the crack of a passing bullet.......if you miss. I can see where a velocity of 800-900 fps would be just fast enough to make it quiet for a shooter while still not dealing with aerodynamic upset. Actually, the perfect goal for me would be the duplication of .22 LR in a 16" barrel, which would be somewhere between 1100 and 1200 fps for a standard load. That would actually duplicate the ballistic performance of my M&P15-22.

But I would think that a suppressed air rifle of that ballistic capability with a .22 caliber pellet matching or coming close to a standard .22 LR load would still be quiet enough to shoot in my back yard. Once you take the muzzle report out of the equation, the crack of the bullet has to be nearby to be nearby for a listener to hear it well, if at all.

[muleman]

!!! WARNING !!!
Lots of pig blood.
First actual shot at about 2:25. Lots of yada yada yada til then.

[youtube][/youtube]

irrelevant to the post, but, those arent wild hogs lol

I have a Gamo, not sure what model. Its fun to play with but i dont find it overly accurate.

[Steve133]

I had considered the effect of going supersonic. I note that the Gamo videos don't claim that the suppressed gun is silent. They claim that game can't detect where it's coming from........which is pretty much exactly what happens with a suppressed AR15 or AR10. It's quieter for the shooter, and the diffused report makes directional location difficult, but there is still the crack of a passing bullet.......if you miss. I can see where a velocity of 800-900 fps would be just fast enough to make it quiet for a shooter while still not dealing with aerodynamic upset. Actually, the perfect goal for me would be the duplication of .22 LR in a 16" barrel, which would be somewhere between 1100 and 1200 fps for a standard load. That would actually duplicate the ballistic performance of my M&P15-22.

But I would think that a suppressed air rifle of that ballistic capability with a .22 caliber pellet matching or coming close to a standard .22 LR load would still be quiet enough to shoot in my back yard. Once you take the muzzle report out of the equation, the crack of the bullet has to be nearby to be nearby for a listener to hear it well, if at all.

Yeah, I agree that the noise issue is not significant. It's an odd double-edged misconception - you have to explain to people that you'll still hear a shot of standard ammunition fired through the best suppressor in the world, but then explain that, no, the sonic boom of the bullet isn't what makes the report so loud. Meh, whatever.

The main thing I was getting at is that I would THINK that aerodynamic upset would be more of an issue with a wasp-waisted pellet than a more geometrically-straightforward bullet, but that's pure speculation on my part. It's further complicated by the fact that there are variations on the standard pellet geometry, some of which might be more inherently stable at trans-sonic or supersonic velocities. Interesting stuff. I'd be a little worried about an attempt to match up the ballistics to an actual firearm being an apples-to-oranges affair since the flight characteristics of the projectiles are different. But maybe they're not different enough. No doubt someone out there actually knows the answer, but it's sure not me.

I'd be interested in following what you come up with. I'm sure you'll come up with a better and more useful analysis than most of the stuff I was able to find online.

[brainman]

Just be careful to check your city ordinances. Firing an air rifle is illegal in many cities. They often include air rifles in their definition of a firearm. Obviously, TAM, I don't know where you live in particular, but from the Grapevine city code:
Sec. 15-1. - Firearms and similar weapons—Definition.

As used in sections 15-2 and 15-3 "firearm" means any device designed, made or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use, including but not limited to a rifle, pistol, shotgun, air rifle, pellet gun, BB gun, air gun.

(Ord. No. 75-17, § 1, 5-20-75)
Sec. 15-2. - Same—Conditions to discharge.

It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge or fire off any firearm within the city except as follows:

(1)
Firing or discharging of a firearm in a shooting gallery that is operating in accordance with all applicable state and federal laws and city ordinances.
(2)
Firing or discharging of an air gun on property owned by the party firing the air gun and his immediate family, provided that the discharge is no closer than 150 feet from any structure, except that of the owner, used for human habitation. Nothing contained in this exception shall permit the discharging of an air gun whereby the projectile falls on the land of another.
(3)
Firing or discharging of a shotgun during legally authorized hunting season with a license or permit duly issued pursuant to the laws of the state and federal law, provided the hunter has permission from the property owner on which any projectile would fall on or over their property, and provided further that the size of shot that can be used is restricted to size number six and smaller.
(4)
Firing or discharging of firearms in defense of self, family or property.
(5)
Firing or discharging of a firearm by a duly authorized peace officer in carrying out his lawful duties.
(6)
Firing or discharging of firearms when permitted or authorized by the laws of the state or United States.
(Ord. No. 75-17, § 2, 5-20-75)
State law reference— Discharge in public place, V.T.C.A., Penal Code § 42.01(a)(8).

Sec. 15-3. - Same—Discharge across public property or near business houses.

It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any firearm of any kind on or across any public square, street or alley in the city or within 50 yards of any business house.