LEO's under attack

[VMI77]

My experience with the phrase "with all due respect" usually means that person feels little is due...

I know handog had a situation that would frustrate most of us here so I can view his comments in that filter.

....which is exactly the kind of judgement most cops are called on to make every single day, and which most of the rest of us aren't. I don't want to beat handog up either, because I have posted in his favor many times about that particular incident......which remains an object lesson to ALL CHL holders of what can happen, even unintentionally, if we are not deliberate about concealment.

There are jobs which, in some purely statistical sense, year in and year out, might carry some higher degree of danger.......meaning more people get killed every year doing that job than any other. But, those dangers are related to machinery, hot metal, slippery surfaces, etc., whereas there are NO other jobs (outside of being an infantryman in a war zone) where the greatest danger, every single day, and every single encounter, is from your fellow human beings. That job description alone is the province of LEOs and nobody else's. Humans are at the top of the food chain, and they are not there because they run faster, have bigger teeth or claws, or more powerful muscles than any other animal. Humans are at the top of the food chain because they are more intelligent and more cunning than any other animals, AND humans are the only animals capable of one other thing: deliberately evil intent.

THAT is what makes LEO work so dangerous. How many fishermen, loggers, or airline pilots have to pull over a carload of people who are manifestly up to no good, and process whatever it is they are up to? At 2:00 a.m.? When your nearest backup is 10 minutes away? Several times a night? EVERY shift? Fishermen get killed by weather and the cold ocean. Loggers get cut down by falling timber and out of control equipment. Airline pilots get taken by defective aircraft and weather. But the dangers they face are either impersonal......they're just in the way at the wrong time....or sometimes their own errors, such as pilot error. Cops are different. Their lethal threats are TRYING to hurt them or kill them.........and that makes all the difference in the world. That's why (A) we hold them so much more accountable for screwing up when they do; and (B) why we owe them an extra measure of respect when they don't.....because they face that danger so that we don't have to.......and that's the difference.

I don't think they get paid enough for the responsibility they are asked to shoulder. But, as I have also posted before, I insist on accountability, because the very fabric of our society depends on every LEO rising above the baser instincts many of us would succumb to when pressed out of our comfort zones. Any cop who pulls that off has my unfiltered respect. Every cop who fails to meet the standard has my unfiltered condemnation, because our culture and social stability depend on respect for authority (not the same thing as "subjugation" to authority). Cops who abuse that respect threaten our social order. Those who uphold it are part of the ties that bind us together, and we're all better for it.

It's really that basic.

I'm just as dead if I'm killed by falling timber or a bullet. And statistically, about 40-50% of LEO deaths are from traffic accidents. Yes, traffic stops are potentially extremely dangerous. Potentially. The fact is, deadly encounters are statistically rare --though I imagine unpleasant encounters with idiots and jerks are frequent. Also on the top ten list, at times, are convenience store clerks. They make less money that LEO's, generally have no means of defending themselves, have no backup, are often alone at 2AM or 3AM, and are also killed by people, not hot coffee and paper cuts. LEO's absolutely have the more difficult job, but just how are they "more accountable?" If I mistake someone with a water nozzle as having a gun and shoot him I'm going to prison. If I shoot at someone who pulls a gun on me and I miss and hit an innocent bystander, I'm going to prison. This is virtually never the outcome for LE. And as far as being paid enough.....we're supposed to have a "free market," and imperfections granted, if the pay wasn't enough to attract enough qualified people to do the job then pay would have to increase. The market sets the pay just like it does for my job and anyone who doesn't find the pay sufficient and can make more money doing something else is free to do so.

[gigag04]

[texanjoker]

My experience with the phrase "with all due respect" usually means that person feels little is due...

I know handog had a situation that would frustrate most of us here so I can view his comments in that filter.

....which is exactly the kind of judgement most cops are called on to make every single day, and which most of the rest of us aren't. I don't want to beat handog up either, because I have posted in his favor many times about that particular incident......which remains an object lesson to ALL CHL holders of what can happen, even unintentionally, if we are not deliberate about concealment.

There are jobs which, in some purely statistical sense, year in and year out, might carry some higher degree of danger.......meaning more people get killed every year doing that job than any other. But, those dangers are related to machinery, hot metal, slippery surfaces, etc., whereas there are NO other jobs (outside of being an infantryman in a war zone) where the greatest danger, every single day, and every single encounter, is from your fellow human beings. That job description alone is the province of LEOs and nobody else's. Humans are at the top of the food chain, and they are not there because they run faster, have bigger teeth or claws, or more powerful muscles than any other animal. Humans are at the top of the food chain because they are more intelligent and more cunning than any other animals, AND humans are the only animals capable of one other thing: deliberately evil intent.

THAT is what makes LEO work so dangerous. How many fishermen, loggers, or airline pilots have to pull over a carload of people who are manifestly up to no good, and process whatever it is they are up to? At 2:00 a.m.? When your nearest backup is 10 minutes away? Several times a night? EVERY shift? Fishermen get killed by weather and the cold ocean. Loggers get cut down by falling timber and out of control equipment. Airline pilots get taken by defective aircraft and weather. But the dangers they face are either impersonal......they're just in the way at the wrong time....or sometimes their own errors, such as pilot error. Cops are different. Their lethal threats are TRYING to hurt them or kill them.........and that makes all the difference in the world. That's why (A) we hold them so much more accountable for screwing up when they do; and (B) why we owe them an extra measure of respect when they don't.....because they face that danger so that we don't have to.......and that's the difference.

I don't think they get paid enough for the responsibility they are asked to shoulder. But, as I have also posted before, I insist on accountability, because the very fabric of our society depends on every LEO rising above the baser instincts many of us would succumb to when pressed out of our comfort zones. Any cop who pulls that off has my unfiltered respect. Every cop who fails to meet the standard has my unfiltered condemnation, because our culture and social stability depend on respect for authority (not the same thing as "subjugation" to authority). Cops who abuse that respect threaten our social order. Those who uphold it are part of the ties that bind us together, and we're all better for it.

It's really that basic.

I'm just as dead if I'm killed by falling timber or a bullet. And statistically, about 40-50% of LEO deaths are from traffic accidents. Yes, traffic stops are potentially extremely dangerous. Potentially. The fact is, deadly encounters are statistically rare --though I imagine unpleasant encounters with idiots and jerks are frequent. Also on the top ten list are convenience store clerks. They make less money that LEO's, generally have no means of defending themselves, have no backup, are often alone at 2AM or 3AM, and are also killed by people, not hot coffee and paper cuts. LEO's absolutely have the more difficult job, but just how are they "more accountable?" If I mistake someone with a water nozzle as having a gun and shoot him I'm going to prison. If I shoot at someone who pulls a gun on me and I miss and hit an innocent bystander, I'm going to prison. This is virtually never the outcome for LE. And as far as being paid enough.....we're supposed to have a "free market," and imperfections granted, if the pay wasn't enough to attract enough qualified people to do the job then pay would have to increase. The market sets the pay just like it does for my job and anyone who doesn't find the pay sufficient and can make more money doing something else is free to do so.

Are you serious? Deadly encounters happen all the time in police work. You just don't read about them unless the officer fires their gun or there is some controversy that makes the news. Fatal statistics are also not a true indicator of the dangers. Many more leo's are shot, stabbed or critically injured, but thankfully survive so they don't make the fatal stat. But hey if you wan't to compare leo's to 7-11 clerks have at it.

[VMI77]

My experience with the phrase "with all due respect" usually means that person feels little is due...

I know handog had a situation that would frustrate most of us here so I can view his comments in that filter.

....which is exactly the kind of judgement most cops are called on to make every single day, and which most of the rest of us aren't. I don't want to beat handog up either, because I have posted in his favor many times about that particular incident......which remains an object lesson to ALL CHL holders of what can happen, even unintentionally, if we are not deliberate about concealment.

There are jobs which, in some purely statistical sense, year in and year out, might carry some higher degree of danger.......meaning more people get killed every year doing that job than any other. But, those dangers are related to machinery, hot metal, slippery surfaces, etc., whereas there are NO other jobs (outside of being an infantryman in a war zone) where the greatest danger, every single day, and every single encounter, is from your fellow human beings. That job description alone is the province of LEOs and nobody else's. Humans are at the top of the food chain, and they are not there because they run faster, have bigger teeth or claws, or more powerful muscles than any other animal. Humans are at the top of the food chain because they are more intelligent and more cunning than any other animals, AND humans are the only animals capable of one other thing: deliberately evil intent.

THAT is what makes LEO work so dangerous. How many fishermen, loggers, or airline pilots have to pull over a carload of people who are manifestly up to no good, and process whatever it is they are up to? At 2:00 a.m.? When your nearest backup is 10 minutes away? Several times a night? EVERY shift? Fishermen get killed by weather and the cold ocean. Loggers get cut down by falling timber and out of control equipment. Airline pilots get taken by defective aircraft and weather. But the dangers they face are either impersonal......they're just in the way at the wrong time....or sometimes their own errors, such as pilot error. Cops are different. Their lethal threats are TRYING to hurt them or kill them.........and that makes all the difference in the world. That's why (A) we hold them so much more accountable for screwing up when they do; and (B) why we owe them an extra measure of respect when they don't.....because they face that danger so that we don't have to.......and that's the difference.

I don't think they get paid enough for the responsibility they are asked to shoulder. But, as I have also posted before, I insist on accountability, because the very fabric of our society depends on every LEO rising above the baser instincts many of us would succumb to when pressed out of our comfort zones. Any cop who pulls that off has my unfiltered respect. Every cop who fails to meet the standard has my unfiltered condemnation, because our culture and social stability depend on respect for authority (not the same thing as "subjugation" to authority). Cops who abuse that respect threaten our social order. Those who uphold it are part of the ties that bind us together, and we're all better for it.

It's really that basic.

I'm just as dead if I'm killed by falling timber or a bullet. And statistically, about 40-50% of LEO deaths are from traffic accidents. Yes, traffic stops are potentially extremely dangerous. Potentially. The fact is, deadly encounters are statistically rare --though I imagine unpleasant encounters with idiots and jerks are frequent. Also on the top ten list are convenience store clerks. They make less money that LEO's, generally have no means of defending themselves, have no backup, are often alone at 2AM or 3AM, and are also killed by people, not hot coffee and paper cuts. LEO's absolutely have the more difficult job, but just how are they "more accountable?" If I mistake someone with a water nozzle as having a gun and shoot him I'm going to prison. If I shoot at someone who pulls a gun on me and I miss and hit an innocent bystander, I'm going to prison. This is virtually never the outcome for LE. And as far as being paid enough.....we're supposed to have a "free market," and imperfections granted, if the pay wasn't enough to attract enough qualified people to do the job then pay would have to increase. The market sets the pay just like it does for my job and anyone who doesn't find the pay sufficient and can make more money doing something else is free to do so.

Are you serious? Deadly encounters happen all the time in police work. You just don't read about them unless the officer fires their gun or there is some controversy that makes the news. Fatal statistics are also not a true indicator of the dangers. Many more leo's are shot, stabbed or critically injured, but thankfully survive so they don't make the fatal stat. But hey if you wan't to compare leo's to 7-11 clerks have at it.

Are you serious? You can't have it both ways. An encounter is either deadly or it is not. The comparison being made is for fatalities. But if you want to get into injury statistics you may have a point, or may not. I don't know what the comparable injury statistics are but will be happy to learn. I can make some intuitive guesses though....for instance, we know something like 80% of handgun wounds are not fatal. I think we can safely assume that a 7-11 clerk is less likely to be wearing body armor than a police officer. We know a store clerk is unlikely to have any training in self-defense. We can therefore guess that if more clerks are stabbed and shot than LEOs, then more will also be wounded or critically injured. In fact, I would guess that many more people are critically injured than killed in every one of the top ten professions on that posted list. How do the rates stack up to LEO's? I don't know. However, I've worked in a profession on that list, and in my experience many more people were seriously and critically injured than killed, probably by a factor of 10. But I haven't seen the stats.....so that's just anecdotal data.

One big difference between the two is that LEO's knowingly and deliberately place themselves into dangerous situations, so, as I already said, LEO's have the more difficult job. You seem not to have much sympathy for 7-11 clerks, some of whom are women and end up raped and murdered. A clerk is frequently confronted by the same kinds of jerks and thugs police officers confront, but without the stature and authority of the badge, without a weapon, without training, and without backup. My comparison is based on statistics compiled by the government. You are absolutely correct that those statistics, any statistics for that matter, don't convey a complete picture of the dangers.....but it is about the only objective data we have available for comparisons. If you have injury statistic comparisons I welcome hearing them.

[tornado]

So back to a topic from the OP (or maybe I should start my own thread)...

The last time I asked something like this I got accused of trying to "fantasize about being a gun hero" and got zero responses from LEOs. Since a couple of LEOs in this current thread have posted positively about having been helped by bystanders, I'll ask again, more generally --

LEOs, if you are in a situation where it appears an offer of help might be appropriate, how would you prefer that offer be made? (More specifically to those who have experienced it, what happened in those situations that worked?

[gigag04]

When was the last 7-11 clerk raped?

Eh nm..I don't really care to get into it on the interwebs...

[VMI77]

When was the last 7-11 clerk raped?

Eh nm..I don't really care to get into it on the interwebs...

I typed in "convenience store clerk raped" on Google and got 391,000 hits. These stories go back over the years....don't know what the rate per year is. The first link is from February 22, 2013, in Texas. I don't think it was the "last one" though. Of course I'm not suggesting it has happened anywhere near 300,000 times, but it seems to happen with some regularity. I'll just put it this way.....I'd much rather have a daughter that is a LEO than one working a night shift at a convenience store. Typing "convenience store clerk shot to death" produces 610,000 hits. So, I'd also much rather have a son that is a LEO (and in fact, almost did, with my encouragement) than a son working in a convenience store, since most of the clerks are left defenseless, and a LEO can at least defend himself. In fact, I too would have gone into LE when I left the military (though probably with the Feds instead of state or local LE), but at the time I had other opportunities that paid much more, and somewhat regrettably, I chose the money.

http://www.cbs19.tv/story/21312501/more ... store-rape

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... store.html

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Linc ... tion=story

http://www.scsolicitor9.org/30years.htm

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... obbery-suv

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 96,6153570

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2003-0 ... rts-clerks

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/198 ... ence-store

http://articles.philly.com/1988-03-31/n ... ring-clerk

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/ne ... 11a66.html

http://lubbockonline.com/news/012397/ma2n.htm

http://www.houmatoday.com/article/20070 ... S/705090318

http://www.greenevillesun.com/Local_New ... -id-271967

[OldCurlyWolf]

I am an LEO, and I appreciate the citizen back up, thanks!

Anytime I am on the road or anywhere I see LEO's working, I take the time to take a look to see if they need help. BTDT about 35 years ago. I don't even want the few less than stellar officers on the wrong end of certain things.

I actually chided a Harris County Deputy for not wearing her vest a few weeks ago.

[handog]

The bottom line is we are ALL under attack, that's why we acquired a CHL; Whether it be interaction with criminals at the check out counter, inflation, job security, North Korea, whatever. By the way, with what, twenty five million Americans out of work it's hard to sympathies with those drawing a pay check I will admit. Before you start typing, I know that LEOs are getting cut too in some jurisdictions. Certainly not Williamson County.

The problem with the OP is when we exaggerate the danger of Police work we give a green light to be trigger, baton, taser happy to those in uniform.

[meweepistola]

Some very good comments and things to think about. My original intent was to highlight the fact that we seem to have some very bad actors thinking that they can stifle proper judicial process by killing and intimidating good folks who happened to choose a career that helps to keep us and our families safe. They have succeeded in intimidating one prosecutor in Houston so far, and killing at least 3 LEO types and 1 innocent wife. We can't afford to let this type of behavior succeed in further damaging our justice system, like the mobsters did in the 20's and 30's. What we ascitizens can do is to be a little more vigilant to what is going on around our LEO's when they are doing their jobs.

I take nothing away from other professions. I work around machinery that can kill you before you know it, if you aren't focused on your job. I sincerely hope that folks in law enforcement don't take this as an opportunity to make foolish choices, just rachet up the ole antenae a little more.

[meweepistola]

BTW handog, I researched back and understand a little more where you are coming from. That could happen to any of us at any time, and I would probably feel the same way you do.
No disrespect intended, eh?

[gigag04]

The problem with the OP is when we exaggerate the danger of Police work we give a green light to be trigger, baton, taser happy to those in uniform.

I have seen firsthand times when officers put themselves at greater and unnecessary risk because they are afraid of the added paperwork of a use of force report...I respectfully submit that it is a double edged sword, and the proper balance is somewhere in the tension.

[texanjoker]

The problem with the OP is when we exaggerate the danger of Police work we give a green light to be trigger, baton, taser happy to those in uniform.

I have seen firsthand times when officers put themselves at greater and unnecessary risk because they are afraid of the added paperwork of a use of force report...I respectfully submit that it is a double edged sword, and the proper balance is somewhere in the tension.

That happens all the time.

[texanjoker]

The bottom line is we are ALL under attack, that's why we acquired a CHL; Whether it be interaction with criminals at the check out counter, inflation, job security, North Korea, whatever. By the way, with what, twenty five million Americans out of work it's hard to sympathies with those drawing a pay check I will admit. Before you start typing, I know that LEOs are getting cut too in some jurisdictions. Certainly not Williamson County.

The problem with the OP is when we exaggerate the danger of Police work we give a green light to be trigger, baton, taser happy to those in uniform.

There is a difference that many seem to forget. The LEO responds to the calls and seeks out the bad guy while the CHL holder carries for self defense.

[gringo pistolero]

There is a difference that many seem to forget. The LEO responds to the calls and seeks out the bad guy while the CHL holder carries for self defense.

Thank you for the reminder that the citizens are on the front line. In many cases the LEO responds to the calls after a citizen is attacked or victimized by criminals in some other way. A good reminder for us all. Thanks.