Do not go into Killeen. You will be sorry.

[Blandtastic]

No lie there I was...

I was on the way to visit my tattoo artist to get my left arm sleeve filled in and I was pulled over by KPD. Apparently I was speeding. Fine, I pull over. Hands ten and two, calmly let the officer know that I was carrying a pistol in a lockbox in accordance with Texas House bill 1815 after handing over my information. That's when things got ugly.

For background, the pistol was in a lockbox, unlocked, behind my seat with the seatback down to cover the box. I have a two-seater car. The windows are tinted, the box is black, the upholstery is black and the back area of the car is definitely not easily seen. Hell, I could hide a SMAW-D back there and he never would have known. Point being, it definitely was not in "plain sight" by any stretch of the imagination.

So, the KPD guy gives me a funny look and asks me where the firearm is. Without moving my hands I calmly let him know it was behind the seat. He then stares for a few seconds and proceeds to inform me that the placement of the weapon is in "plain sight" and that he had probable cause to arrest me for open display. It did take him quite a bit of time to find the box even after I told him where it was, however.

I was stupefied. This is a big deal for me on a personal level. This blatant intimidation would have a lasting effect on me. An arrest and incarceration over a certain amount of time would automatically void my VA disability rating and SSDI I collect on account of being blown up in Iraq. I would lose my house, my car and would have a hard time convincing my wife that it was in her best interest to stay with me. In short, disastrous. Needless to say, I try to stay within the boundaries of the law at all times on account of this. As a matter of fact this is the first ticket for speeding I have ever received in my life. I have never been arrested or ticketed in my 36 years on this planet. I have three good conduct medals from the Army and the Marines. I try to be a good citizen.

I was in a good mood that morning until that threat, which hit be like a bolt of lightning from Mount Olympus. Trying to keep my cool yet at the same time totally furious that this person was willing to destroy my life with a spurious bit of harassment. I firmly told the officer that he was wrong, he knew he was wrong and that any charges filed against me would be dropped in about 5 minutes in front of the judge. This irritated him off and he told me that the only places he accepted a gun under the 1815 law were under the seat and in the glovebox.

He then asked me why I had a gun and looked at my like I was a retard for saying "self defense". Well, I probably have more experience than this guy carrying weapons, considering that I have 5 years in the Marines and 5 years in the Army as an infantryman. More used to having an automatic rifle and grenades but I think I am qualified to use a pistol without hurting myself.

There is no way I am putting a gun in my glovebox. I have don't have anything in there at all but putting a gun in there with insurance and such is a great way to quickly escalate a calm situation with an LEO into a much more serious one. Not smart. My seat space is small to the point that only a .380 or smaller weapon will easily fit in there.

After calming down, I called KPD headquarters to get clarification on the issue. I was passed off to four different people until I had an LT tell me that I was carrying legally in my car but the policy was concealed in the vehicle and "not within easy reach". She mentioned the trunk. She also mentioned that it was ultimately up to the officer's discretion whether or not to arrest me.

To which I replied that there is no provision in State, County or City laws stipulating that the gun has to be inaccessible. I also told her that if guns made her nervous, she should police in an area that criminalizes citizens using their 2nd Amendment rights. New York is a good place to go. I also told her that harassment of people who are not breaking the law is totally wrong and not a good idea if they want to have good community relations. I told her that law enforcement has the right to arrest anyone at any time for anything but that it doesn't mean the charges will stick. She was offended that I was telling her how to do her job. Folks, I am offended that I have to tell her how to do her job.

Just for the record, Texas Highway Patrol informed me that "plain sight" is a towel or shirt covering the firearm and that I was definitely in compliance with the law. He also told me that it defied the spirit of the law to insist that citizens place the firearm "outside of easy reach". He went on to say that harassing citizens with false arrest is not a good idea. No kidding. He further informed me that the entire encounter is most likely recorded on video and audio and that I should fiel a grievance with their headquarters. I think I might just do that.

In short, stay completely away from Killeen. The town is insanely corrupt, inefficient, and completely hostile to ordinary citizens carrying weapons to protect themselves. Which is ironic, considering that Killeen is one of those places I would feel uncomfortable being without a firearm on account of their hideous crime problem. I am furious that I am paying these people to harass me and am now boycotting the whole miserable base town. I will not spend another dime there unless I absolutely have to. I will not go there unless it is a life or death situation. Thank baby Jesus I don't have to live in that sunblasted hole.

[RottenApple]

Welcome to the forum.

I've got to say that this is an interesting first post. I've been through Killeen many times, and been pulled over there once (burnt out taillight) and never had any issues. When I got pulled over I handed my DL, CHL, & insurance card to the officer, he asked if I was carrying (I was), where it was (right hip, about 3:00), and to keep away from it. Then he told me about the taillight. He was pleasantly surprised when I thanked him & offered to replace it right then (I carry spare bulbs & fuses - a leftover from when I drove truck). He watched while I replaced it, wrote me a warning, and I went on my way to get my nieces in Granite Shoals.

Now, one experience (yours or mine) with a single officer doesn't mean a department-wide policy nor a general attitude issue with KPD officers, but it seems to me that your attitude (based on your description of the event) and disagreement (again, based on your post) with the officer may have caused things to be more difficult than they needed to be otherwise.

Just my 2¢.

[texanjoker]

Confirming the lid of the box was closed? If the gun was in a case, behind a seat, out of view and the lid closed it would not be in plain view. I am glad it didn't escalate when you started correcting him on the law. It sounds like it had the makings of a pissing contest.

This speaks for any arrest. While it is an officers discretion to make an arrest under most circumstances (family violence and some stuff require an arrest) an officer still needs probable cause that a crime has been committed to make an arrest. LEO's should be in the business of ensuring they are making good arrests within the law to ensure they are complying with the 4th amendment. Obeying the constitution and protecting our citizens rights is very important, if not the most important thing a LEO does.

In reviewing the law, I see no mention of it not being in reach, ect. It is clear that the firearm must be concealed.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/ ... 01815F.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Blandtastic]

@texanjoker: the gun was in the box, lid shut, behind the seat, with the seatback put over it. There is no conceivable way that he could know what was in it. It's not even the manufacturer's box. Just a plain plastic lockbox. The only reason I told him was to make him more comfortable. I am sympathetic to LEOs and their work. Lord knows I have manned enough hasty TCPs downrange.

The reason this is such a big deal is that because this was a speed trap the entire encounter is almost certainly on video and audio. I shudder to think what this cowboy is doing when he isn't being recorded. Law enforcement has a duty to both be more informed of the law and follow it more closely than the average citizen. It's called rule of law and it applies to everyone.

The "outside of reach" provision is a point of law in the 1815 bill that means the car is an extension of your castle, you have a right to carry but other passengers do NOT have access to it at any time. That's where I think the confusion from their headquarters came from.

SECTION 1. Section 46.02, Penal Code, is amended by
amending Subsection (a) and adding Subsections (a-1) and (a-2) to
read as follows:
(a) A person commits an offense if the person [he]
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or
her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the
person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle
that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

So this means that it cannot be under anyone else's control. Passengers and the public cannot have easy access to it. KPD is over the line insisting that it be kept out of reach of everyone. That is contrary to the spirit and letter of the law.

[texanjoker]

If the stop was recorded, you could try and submit an open record request for the audio/video.

Speed traps are all to common here in TX. It is all about the $$$.

[RottenApple]

I just re-read my post and realized it may sound like an attack towards you or your experience. It was not intended that way and, if you took it that way, I apologize.

You were legally in the right, of course. I'm just a firm believer in not arguing/disagreeing with LEOs unless absolutely necessary. In this case, a simple "thank you for the clarification, officer" might have diffused a potentially disastrous encounter. Then just file a complaint with the department after the fact.

[3dfxMM]

It doesn't say anything about passengers and the public having access to it. The under control part is in reference to the motor vehicle. It just means that if you are the driver it doesn't have to be your vehicle.

I am curious as to why you told him that you had a firearm. Unless he asks, there is no real reason to mention your firearm whether you have a CHL or not.

[Blandtastic]

@ rottenapple: Thanks for the welcome! I enjoy being in Texas for the most part. The hot weather is good on my joint and shrapnel pain issues and the people here are polite and friendly to an extent that this WA state transplant is blown away by the common courtesy shown every day by regular people. Ain't from here but got here just as quick as I could as the saying goes.

San Antonio is nice, Dallas is hopping but far safer than any other big city I have been in and Austin is simply fun.

I do not like base towns in general. I have seen quite a few of them from my time in service and they are universally grubby and crime ridden. It has been that way for Beaufort SC, Oceaside CA, Wahiawa HI, 29 Palms CA, Gate 2 Street in Okinawa and here in Killeen. I have lived near all of those places and they are all pretty seedy. No idea why.

As for the arguing, well he did drop the matter pretty quickly when I called his bluff on the arrest. I wasn't rude but I will politely, firmly reject anyone shredding my Constitutional rights. I lived for 10 years with them gone while serving in the military and do not appreciate someone trying to abrogate my 4th Amendment rights because he is having a bad day or whatever. He was wrong and he knew it. He just wanted to intimidate me. Uncool.

Sorry, not trying for snark here. I am still a little nad about the incident. It's hard to describe his attitude but he was way out of line.

[RoyGBiv]

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with KPD.
It's unacceptable for ANY citizen to be dealt with in the manner you describe, but even more aggravating when something like that is done to a veteran.

Thanks for the warning. And thank you for your service.

[RX8er]

Welcome to the group and sorry it had to be this story for your first posts. I have always been told and even reinforced by LEO that if you are carrying under MPA, you should only disclose you have a firearm if asked and never volunteer it. There is nothing in the law that says you have to disclose it to an officer if you are not asked. Now, if you have a CHL, it's a little different story.

[Blandtastic]

@3dfxmm: The information I got about the "under control" provision is from the CHL class I took a month ago here in Texas. The police have the right to confiscate the weapon or arrest the owner apparently. I called DPS and they told me the same thing. So, 1815 is legal just to keep the firearm out of reach of passengers and hidden from plain sight. Also it cannot be on your person. In short, I was definitely within the boundaries of the law.

I think the Killeen PD lieutenant was confused about the issue. She did tell me that if the firearm was within reach that she would detain me and possibly arrest me if she felt unsafe. You can beat the charge but you can't beat the ride. That is why I caution anyone from going through Killeen with a handgun concealed under 1815 without a CHL. They apparently feel that they have the right to harrass you for following the law.

As far as telling the officer that I had a weapon in the car, I feel like it is just common courtesy. Better to tell the cops up front and get it out of the way than get arrested when they freak about a gun that you didn't tell them about. I am sympathetic to the stresses involved with their line of work and try to look at it from their point of view.

What I get for being polite I guess.

[RottenApple]

As for the arguing, well he did drop the matter pretty quickly when I called his bluff on the arrest. I wasn't rude but I will politely, firmly reject anyone shredding my Constitutional rights. I lived for 10 years with them gone while serving in the military and do not appreciate someone trying to abrogate my 4th Amendment rights because he is having a bad day or whatever. He was wrong and he knew it. He just wanted to intimidate me. Uncool.

Sorry, not trying for snark here. I am still a little irritated about the incident. It's hard to describe his attitude but he was way out of line.

I'm sure he was out of line, but I think you got pretty lucky that he dropped the issue. LEOs aren't paid to know the law, they are paid to enforce it. There are so many laws n the books, not to mention the amended sections, gray issues, etc, that its impossible for anyone, including lawyers & judges to know the entirety of the law. That's why there are law libraries where attorneys & lawyers can look up laws, statutes, cases, etc. Heck, just look at the number of posts on this forum where people have been told by LEOs, DAs, etc that its illegal to carry in hospitals, even if its not posted.

All I'm saying is that it is a better policy (IMO) to back down temporarily and file a formal complaint later. If this officer had wanted to, he could have arrested you, given you a free ride to the local PD, charged & booked you, and you would have had to she'll out the $$$ for an attorney to fight it. You'd probably win in the end, but you'd be out lots of cash to get there.

Just something to think about. We each have our own way of dealing with these types of encounters. And, as always, our methods change based upon our knowledge and experience. It's the old folks on this forum (Charles, Jallan, Pawpaw, TAM, AndyC, and others) that have taught me a lot about dispute resolution and especially dealing with LEOs.

[K.Mooneyham]

Under the part of penal code added through the Motorist Protection Act, in Texas it is perfectly legal to have a loaded handgun in your vehicle, within reach, even if the individual does not have a CHL, as long as it remains in the vehicle, except when transported to/from the place of residence, place the individual is staying, etc. (And of course, that assumes the person is legally able to have the handgun in the first place.) It must not be in plain sight (such as the DPS told you) and the individual cannot be involved in any criminal activity or part of an organized gang. There isn't a lot more to it. My sister and BIL used to live in Killeen when he was stationed at Hood and they didn't have the best things to say about the town, but then again, he never had any run-ins of the sort you are describing.

[RottenApple]

@3dfxmm: The information I got about the "under control" provision is from the CHL class I took a month ago here in Texas. The police have the right to confiscate the weapon or arrest the owner apparently. I called DPS and they told me the same thing. So, 1815 is legal just to keep the firearm out of reach of passengers and hidden from plain sight. Also it cannot be on your person. In short, I was definitely within the boundaries of the law.

I think the Killeen PD lieutenant was confused about the issue. She did tell me that if the firearm was within reach that she would detain me and possibly arrest me if she felt unsafe. You can beat the charge but you can't beat the ride. That is why I caution anyone from going through Killeen with a handgun concealed under 1815 without a CHL. They apparently feel that they have the right to harrass you for following the law.

As far as telling the officer that I had a weapon in the car, I feel like it is just common courtesy. Better to tell the cops up front and get it out of the way than get arrested when they freak about a gun that you didn't tell them about. I am sympathetic to the stresses involved with their line of work and try to look at it from their point of view.

What I get for being polite I guess.

Clarification: If it is your vehicle or in your control, you can carry a handgun on or about your person provided it is not in plain view, you can legally possess a handgun, you are not a member of a criminal street gang, and you are not engaged in a criminal act. There is nothing in the MPA that prohibits you from wearing your gun in a holster (or even tucked into your pants - though this is just asking for trouble).

HB1815 - Motorist Protection Act

SECTION 1. Section 46.02, Penal Code, is amended by
amending Subsection (a) and adding Subsections (a-1) and (a-2) to
read as follows:
(a) A person commits an offense if the person [he]
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or
her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the
person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle
that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or
her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a
Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance
regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as
defined by Section 71.01.
(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes
real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as
living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or
permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor
vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a
vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to
be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer,
camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with
living quarters.

Now, carrying on body under MPA could be problematic if an officer requests you to exit your vehicle because then you would be carrying w/o a license (assuming you don't have a CHL). So it's probably not a smart idea, but it certainly isn't illegal. Should someone be carrying on body under MPA (w/o a CHL), get pulled over and asked to exit the vehicle, I would think it smart to inform the officer that I was carrying a handgun Nader authority of the MPA, that it was on my person, that i was concerned i would violate MPA by exiting the vehicle, and ask the officer how they would like me to proceed. This lets the officer know 1) you are carrying legally (they may disagree as happened in your case), 2) you are being responsible and don't want to surprise them, & 3) you are willing to comply with their directions.

[Blandtastic]

The thing of it is he said the following:

"That is in plain sight and I could arrest you for open carry if I wanted to."

It wasn't and he can't. See, now I am mad and will definitely file a grievance. I understand that he cannot possibly know all the laws but I would hope they go over firearms laws, drug laws, family violence and traffic since it is mostly what they do. In this case he knew damn well that the thing was NOT in "plain sight" and that he had no real basis for an arrest. Ipso facto, harassment. I didn't lose my cool or give him a reason to further harass me but I was pretty mad and it probably showed.

I did speak to a criminal defense attorney and he informed me that "plain view" means just that. It has to be plainly visible, not hidden under clothes, seats or boxes. It's not like the gun was sitting on the passenger seat, locked and cocked. It was in a nondescript box behind the seat outside of ordinary view. He only noticed it after I told him of its location and after looking for a few seconds before he even spotted the box. The attorney said I should definitely file a grievance with the department and possibly a harassment lawsuit. He was irritated and wants to see the video.

Apparently the KPD unofficial policy is harassment and intimidation towards anyone with a concealed handgun under Texas House Bill 1815. There is no official policy but they are told to arrest anyone who has a gun concealed "within reach". They will admit to 1815 carry rights but insist that it be kept in the trunk. The KPD LT I spoke with said that since my car does not have a trunk or space that I cannot reach (REALLY small car) that I should not have it at all. Amazing. That's like telling someone they can drive a car, but only a particular kind of car.

In their own defense, KPD does patrol a crime ridden area of Texas and a lot of their officers have been killed in the line of duty. Far more than is normal for a town this size. So, I really do understand the paranoia. However, it's unacceptable to treat everyone like a criminal if you are an LEO in a dangerous area. Tough, no one twisted their arm to work there.

I am glad he didn't arrest me too but he would have been guilty of false arrest and unlawful imprisonment. I almost wish he would have. Any judge would have thrown out the case in about 5 minutes. Bell County lockup isn't pleasant but I don't sweat anything as long as no one is shooting at me.