DPS Serial Number Check Strategy

[Dirthawking]

A friend of mine was stopped by dps a few weeks ago, he handed him his chl and the trooper asked if he was armed, replied yes I am - trooper asked where the gun was , in the consol , trooper said hand it over so he could check if the gun was stolen.

I'd have refused to "hand it over" (politely, of course) on those grounds and requested he get a supervisor out there (I think they have to call in the request, don't they?). Unless I'm mistaken (which happens more often than not - LOL), LEOs can ONLY disarm you if they believe it necessary for their safety, your safety, or the safety of others. To "check if the gun was stolen" doesn't meet those requirements.

Now, if the supervisor sided with the officer, I'd comply. But I'd get the officer's and supervisr's information and file a formal complaint ASAP.

[CEOofEVIL]

In my experience this can and does happen. Years (4-5?) ago a friend and myself were driving to the range, and were pulled over by a DPS officer for some unbeknownst reason. We, of course, had guns in the car (wouldn't be really possible to shoot without them!), and as soon as the officer found out, he immediately made his intent to inspect them known. Friend was removed from the vicinity of the vehicle, and the officer opened the rear hatch where we had the guns stored, and I politely asked him if I could join him and was told to stay seated in the vehicle with the doors closed. He ran the numbers on the guns we had (a few pistols and rifles - the most fancy thing in there was my Saiga 12) and I was questioned about them. Specifically the S12: officer wanted to know what "caliber it was", which was hilarious because he asked "What is this Saiga 12 gauge?" leading into the question. Asked me where I got it, and how long I had it, etc. It was pretty clear that he was fishing to see if I knew anything about the firearm to determine if it was mine or not.

Friend was back at the patrol car (just standing outside it, not cuffed or anything) and confirmed that he heard the officer call the S/N's in. They all came back clean, of course.

The kicker? The officer didn't at all care about my carry gun, NOR seeing my ID or CHL when I informed him that I was carrying. He didn't even bat an eye at or bother to look at/take my ID's when I tried to hand them to him. Pretty interesting that you would want to search someones firearms without even determining whether or not they are who they say they are, or apparently caring about the firearm said person is carrying. Ultimately we were sent on our way about an hour or so later. No citations were given, and the only thing the officer said when we asked why were pulled over was that he saw a break light was not functioning. Funnier yet? We didn't break until after he lit us up. We weren't even close to speeding or driving in a manner that could be deemed dubious or unsafe. It was a pretty shady stop all in all. I can tell you that I felt pretty sick to my stomach about the whole thing after it happened - we both felt violated because were were stopped and our firearms inspected for no reason that was explained to us other than "It's department policy" (as per the officer when I asked him). My gut tells me we were stopped because of the area we were in, direction of travel, (between Presidio and Marfa) and because of appearances (my friend's Explorer looked like it had seen better days) - IE: thinking we were from Mexico and running something illegal. Just spit balling here, though.

YMMV - Just my own experience.

TL;DR: DPS officer incorrectly profiled us, determined we were innocuous citizens, ran our numbers anyway and then sent us on our merry way.

[tbrown]

Unfortunately, there are people born in Texas who are Yankees at heart.

[dac1842]

Cover the serial number with tape! Seriously? That in itself raises reasonable suspicion, which leads to probable cause. Not a real good idea. Once the officer uses his lawful authority to disarm you, there is nothing that prevents him frm running your serial number, just as there is nothing that prevents him from running your license plate prior to your stoop, or your drivers license during the stop.
This is not as complicated as many of you are making it

[E.Marquez]

Cover the serial number with tape! Seriously? That in itself raises reasonable suspicion, which leads to probable cause. Not a real good idea. Once the officer uses his lawful authority to disarm you, there is nothing that prevents him frm running your serial number, just as there is nothing that prevents him from running your license plate prior to your stoop, or your drivers license during the stop.
This is not as complicated as many of you are making it

And there in is the issue at hand....
The law allows a LEO to disarm if there is a concern for safety... his, or others. ...

GC §411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.
(a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's
official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer
reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder,
officer, or another individual.

IF and I say IF.. IF there is a department disarming and then running Ser# on the basis solely a check to see if it is stolen or not.. it is a violation of law.

IF the officer can articulate why he felt the CHL was presenting a threat to him, or others and was disarmed for that reason, AND then subsequent to that lawful confiscation of the weapon runs the ser# that would be a somewhat different issue.

[dac1842]

Mr. Marquez,
With allude respect I disagree with your interpretation.

[RottenApple]

Mr. Marquez,
With allude respect I disagree with your interpretation.

Really? How so? The law seems very explicit on reasons a LEO can disarm a CHL holder. It was quoted above and there is no wiggle room there. Nothing even remotely ambiguous.

[chuck j]

Ok, I am new here and maybe the answer is obvious but why do you want to cover the serial number on your firearm??

I'm like probation officer , why would you be nervous about the SN ? I dont mind them running mine .

[RottenApple]

Ok, I am new here and maybe the answer is obvious but why do you want to cover the serial number on your firearm??

I'm like probation officer , why would you be nervous about the SN ? I dont mind them running mine .

If you've nothing to hide, why would you have an issue with the police walking not your home and going through your belongings? If you've nothing to hide, why would you mind the NSA tapping into you phone calls, intercepting your emails, etc?

How about because its our RIGHT to be secure in our persons, houses, papers, etc?!?!

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[dac1842]

The sole discretion to disarm is that of the officer's. no one, meaning the courts or his/her superiors is going to second guess an officer's decision to disarm someone. All an officer has to say is that he did it for his safety, end of discussion.
When I was a Sargeant, which was long before CHL,had a citizen called to complain about being disarmed I would have asked one question, Does the law permit the officer to disarm you? Yes, have a nice day.
It is not as black and white as you paint it. The law does not state the officer feel threatened, the law says he may do so for safety of himself, the license holder or another person.
I realize that many people will argue that it is a play on words,but not in the eyes of the law. To say you feel threatened suggest someone did something to make you feel that way. The wording for the safety of, means nothing more than at the officers discretion.

[sjfcontrol]

Ok, I am new here and maybe the answer is obvious but why do you want to cover the serial number on your firearm??

I'm like probation officer , why would you be nervous about the SN ? I dont mind them running mine .

If you've nothing to hide, why would you have an issue with the police walking not your home and going through your belongings? If you've nothing to hide, why would you mind the NSA tapping into you phone calls, intercepting your emails, etc?

How about because its our RIGHT to be secure in our persons, houses, papers, etc?!?!

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Actually, you (we all) have something to hide. We just don't necessarily know what it is. Therefore I'd rather not find out what is is by agreeing to a search that isn't legally justified.

[RottenApple]

The sole discretion to disarm is that of the officer's. no one, meaning the courts or his/her superiors is going to second guess an officer's decision to disarm someone. All an officer has to say is that he did it for his safety, end of discussion.
When I was a Sargeant, which was long before CHL,had a citizen called to complain about being disarmed I would have asked one question, Does the law permit the officer to disarm you? Yes, have a nice day.
It is not as black and white as you paint it. The law does not state the officer feel threatened, the law says he may do so for safety of himself, the license holder or another person.
I realize that many people will argue that it is a play on words,but not in the eyes of the law. To say you feel threatened suggest someone did something to make you feel that way. The wording for the safety of, means nothing more than at the officers discretion.

Thank you. Perhaps you didn't intend to, but you just acknowledged that my point was 100% correct. If the officer articulates that he is disarming you to check if the gun is stolen, then he is not doing so for safety reasons. If this were done to me, ar the very least he will wind up with a formal complaint filed against him. If the officer makes a habit of disarming to check serial numbers, and enough citizens file complaints, eventually said officer is going to find himself in trouble over it.

[dac1842]

The law permits the officer to disarm the CHL holder. He does not have to have probable cause to disarm, a warrant is not required for him to run the serial number just as he does not require a warrant to run a drivers license check on you once you hand him your DL.
So until someone wants to challenge the law permitting the officer to disarm you, you have two choices, comply with te law or challenge it and be prepared to suffer consequnces.

[E.Marquez]

Mr. Marquez,
With allude respect I disagree with your interpretation.

OK, please state why, based on what part of the law already cited

[RottenApple]

The law permits the officer to disarm the CHL holder if there is a concern for his safety, your safety, or the safety of others. He does not have to have probable cause to disarm, a warrant is not required for him to run the serial number just as he does not require a warrant to run a drivers license check on you once you hand him your DL.
So until someone wants to challenge the law permitting the officer to disarm you, you have two choices, comply with te law or challenge it and be prepared to suffer consequnces.

Fixed it for you. Despite your "interpretation", LEOs do NOT have blanket authority to disarm CHL holders. And while there may not be any test cases, the legislature is quite clear regarding when a LEO may disarm.

Sec. 411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM. (a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.
(b) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may temporarily disarm a license holder when a license holder enters a nonpublic, secure portion of a law enforcement facility, if the law enforcement agency provides a gun locker where the peace officer can secure the license holder's handgun. The peace officer shall secure the handgun in the locker and shall return the handgun to the license holder immediately after the license holder leaves the nonpublic, secure portion of the law enforcement facility.
(c) A law enforcement facility shall prominently display at each entrance to a nonpublic, secure portion of the facility a sign that gives notice in both English and Spanish that, under this section, a peace officer may temporarily disarm a license holder when the license holder enters the nonpublic, secure portion of the facility. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height. The sign shall be displayed in a clearly visible and conspicuous manner.
(d) In this section:
(1) "Law enforcement facility" means a building or a portion of a building used exclusively by a law enforcement agency that employs peace officers as described by Articles 2.12(1) and (3), Code of Criminal Procedure, and support personnel to conduct the official business of the agency. The term does not include:
(A) any portion of a building not actively used exclusively to conduct the official business of the agency; or
(B) any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk, walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) "Nonpublic, secure portion of a law enforcement facility" means that portion of a law enforcement facility to which the general public is denied access without express permission and to which access is granted solely to conduct the official business of the law enforcement agency.

Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 10.01(a), eff. Sept. 1, 1997.
Amended by:
Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 572, Sec. 1, eff. September 1, 2007.

If you feel so strongly that LEOs can legally disarm CHLs for any reason, please show us the relevant law, rule, regulation, or code that grants them that authority.