Is this sign legally posted?

[Keith B]

The more I think about the 30.06 signage, i have come up with the following conclusion. Those that post them assume that we law abiding folks will be looking for said sign so they can post almost anywhere.

I mean we all know that a bad guy is going to search for the sign as well." Oh, cant rob this place they have a 30.06 sign so I can't carry my gun in there". (sarcasm off now)

I know you were being sarcastic, but I can say that if I was a bad guy, I'd look for 30.06 signs everywhere I go too.
How else can I determine the best place to commit a crime?

30.06 signs only apply to a CHL holder so a bad guy without a CHL can pass right by it.

Seriously, all the law says is it must be conspicuously displayed. Doesn't have to be on the all the doors/entrances or in the line of sight if it meets the definition of conspicuous, which is:

con·spic·u·ous/kənˈspɪkyuəs/ Show Spelled [kuhn-spik-yoo-uhs] Show IPA
adjective
1. easily seen or noticed; readily visible or observable: a conspicuous error
2. attracting special attention, as by outstanding qualities or eccentricities: He was conspicuous by his booming laughter.

If it is easily seen or noticed, then it meets the legal requirements. And as stated, if you see it you have been given notice.

[nightmare69]

[

Seriously, all the law says is it must be conspicuously displayed. Doesn't have to be on the all the doors/entrances or in the line of sight if it meets the definition of conspicuous, which is:

con·spic·u·ous/kənˈspɪkyuəs/ Show Spelled [kuhn-spik-yoo-uhs] Show IPA
adjective
1. easily seen or noticed; readily visible or observable: a conspicuous error
2. attracting special attention, as by outstanding qualities or eccentricities: He was conspicuous by his booming laughter.

If it is easily seen or noticed, then it meets the legal requirements. And as stated, if you see it you have been given notice.

IMO its not conspicuously displayed. If I cannot see it from the parking lot or when I enter the store or later when I enter the mall from said store then Im going to take my chances. If they want to truly ban CC in that mall part only then they would have to post the 30.06 outside EVERY store with a outside public entrance. Until they do that I will continue to carry all 2 times per year I go to the mall.

[chane]

How about completely covered by another unrelated sign in front of it? I had to step back and look for this one. Saw the "29ee" and kept on walking. Checked the main entrance on the other side of the building and no signs at all.

[Keith B]

IMO its not conspicuously displayed. If I cannot see it from the parking lot or when I enter the store or later when I enter the mall from said store then Im going to take my chances. If they want to truly ban CC in that mall part only then they would have to post the 30.06 outside EVERY store with a outside public entrance. Until they do that I will continue to carry all 2 times per year I go to the mall.

No they don't. The law does not state it has to be at every entrance. It only states it must be conspicuously displayed.

Bottom line, if it is where you see it, then you have been given notice, period. If you have not seen the sign then you may have a defense to prosecution, but bottom line, one sign on the mall is all that is legally required. Once you have seen it you have been given legal notice, no matter what entrance you go in.

[Jaguar]

If you do carry be aware worst case you could get arrested and be charged with criminal trespass by a CHL holder. This is your choice but if you do carry and get caught do not admit that you knew it was posted, play dumb.

Um, yeah, like the cops never came across anyone doing that before...

[RottenApple]

If you do carry be aware worst case you could get arrested and be charged with criminal trespass by a CHL holder. This is your choice but if you do carry and get caught do not admit that you knew it was posted, play dumb.

Um, yeah, like the cops never came across anyone doing that before...

Not only that, but isn't there a forum rule against promoting illegal activity?

[nightmare69]

That is up to the mods and admins rotten. My Chl instructor brought up this very subject on the Longview mall. He said he carrys every time he goes in there.

[nightmare69]

No they don't. The law does not state it has to be at every entrance. It only states it must be conspicuously displayed.

Bottom line, if it is where you see it, then you have been given notice, period. If you have not seen the sign then you may have a defense to prosecution, but bottom line, one sign on the mall is all that is legally required. Once you have seen it you have been given legal notice, no matter what entrance you go in.

I know they don't have to post the sign at all then entrances but they should knowing out of 20+ public entrances and only 3 are posted. My argument is that someone who NEVER enters through the posted entrances and carrys cause they saw no sign. They are committing a crime that could land them in jail plus lose their CHL and are not aware of it. IMO the mall could be held responsible for that.

If I was ever caught carrying they only words out of my mouth would be..."I saw no sign, I want my lawyer" Not another word would be said.

[Keith B]

I know they don't have to post the sign at all then entrances but they should knowing out of 20+ public entrances and only 3 are posted. My argument is that someone who NEVER enters through the posted entrances and carrys cause they saw no sign. They are committing a crime that could land them in jail plus lose their CHL and are not aware of it. IMO the mall could be held responsible for that.

If I was ever caught carrying they only words out of my mouth would be..."I saw no sign, I want my lawyer" Not another word would be said.

Actually they are NOT committing a crime. They are only doing so if they have been given effective notice. So, take your example. If you enter a mall through an unposted entrance and have never seen the sign, then you have NOT been given notice and you have a defense to prosecution. Once you are given notice (verbally or via the 30.06 sign), THEN you would be committing a crime. The problem arises in the fact the mall IS posted per the letter of the law and you MAY have to defend your not being given notice and truly (not lying) state that you were unaware of the posting as you had never seen the sign.

Take Grapevine Mills mall. They have signs that are large but don't have the legal verbiage, and are not posted at every entrance. However, I have word direct from the Chief of GPD that an officer MAY arrest you for carrying in the mall if you are discovered, legal or not. At that point you would have to plead your case that you had never received notice (not seen the sign or known the mall was posted) or take the defense of the signs not meeting the legal requirement.

[nightmare69]

Gotcha, Since the stores are not posted you can legally carry there and if you wanted to go to another store you could go back outside and walk around to it. Since you never entered the mall I see no problem here.

I rarely go to the mall anyway and when I do I just go to Sears or JC Penny and leave.

[RX8er]

Actually they are NOT committing a crime. They are only doing so if they have been given effective notice. So, take your example. If you enter a mall through an unposted entrance and have never seen the sign, then you have NOT been given notice and you have a defense to prosecution. Once you are given notice (verbally or via the 30.06 sign), THEN you would be committing a crime. The problem arises in the fact the mall IS posted per the letter of the law and you MAY have to defend your not being given notice and truly (not lying) state that you were unaware of the posting as you had never seen the sign.

Take Grapevine Mills mall. They have signs that are large but don't have the legal verbiage, and are not posted at every entrance. However, I have word direct from the Chief of GPD that an officer MAY arrest you for carrying in the mall if you are discovered, legal or not. At that point you would have to plead your case that you had never received notice (not seen the sign or known the mall was posted) or take the defense of the signs not meeting the legal requirement.

I'll just add that I was talking with a Grapevine officer several weeks ago at a dealership and he told me the same and added to the off limits areas: If you are caught carrying at one of the Grapevine Lake parks, they will arrest you there too for carry on Federal property and "hand you over" to authorities. I asked who they would turn you over to and he wasn't exactly sure. He said that the majority of "city" parks are actually on Corp property.

[SQLGeek]

Actually they are NOT committing a crime. They are only doing so if they have been given effective notice. So, take your example. If you enter a mall through an unposted entrance and have never seen the sign, then you have NOT been given notice and you have a defense to prosecution. Once you are given notice (verbally or via the 30.06 sign), THEN you would be committing a crime. The problem arises in the fact the mall IS posted per the letter of the law and you MAY have to defend your not being given notice and truly (not lying) state that you were unaware of the posting as you had never seen the sign.

Take Grapevine Mills mall. They have signs that are large but don't have the legal verbiage, and are not posted at every entrance. However, I have word direct from the Chief of GPD that an officer MAY arrest you for carrying in the mall if you are discovered, legal or not. At that point you would have to plead your case that you had never received notice (not seen the sign or known the mall was posted) or take the defense of the signs not meeting the legal requirement.

I'll just add that I was talking with a Grapevine officer several weeks ago at a dealership and he told me the same and added to the off limits areas: If you are caught carrying at one of the Grapevine Lake parks, they will arrest you there too for carry on Federal property and "hand you over" to authorities. I asked who they would turn you over to and he wasn't exactly sure. He said that the majority of "city" parks are actually on Corp property.

In other words...stay out of Grapevine.

[bdickens]

I'd walk right on in.

I'd probably never see the sign, because I won't look for it. I never look for 30.06 signs. The law clearly states that the 30.06 posting must be conspicuous and the way I see it, if I have to go on an Easter egg hunt to find the sign it is hardly "conspicuous."

Now, I know some of you are going to object that I am deliberately breaking the law because I have been made aware of the sign. But, let me tell you something, "some guy on the internet said..." is what is known in the courts as "hearsay." Hearsay is not admissible as evidence.

The burden is on the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I was given effective notice before I can be convicted of a crime in this matter.

As far as all you "well, you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride" naysayers out there, what is really going to happen is either of three things:

1) Nothing. Because concealed is concealed and I am the only person in this world who is going to know I am carrying and no one else is going to be any the wiser.

Or, if I were to somehow get outed,

2) Someone from the mall management or security will approach me and either then give me effective notice or ask me to leave, at which time I will politely apologize and accede to their wishes by taking myself and my money elsewhere.

or

3) Someone will call the police, who will arrive and ask me to leave, at which time I will politely apologize and accede to their wishes by taking myself and my money elsewhere.

[RottenApple]

I'd walk right on in.

I'd probably never see the sign, because I won't look for it. I never look for 30.06 signs. The law clearly states that the 30.06 posting must be conspicuous and the way I see it, if I have to go on an Easter egg hunt to find the sign it is hardly "conspicuous."

Now, I know some of you are going to object that I am deliberately breaking the law because I have been made aware of the sign. But, let me tell you something, "some guy on the internet said..." is what is known in the courts as "hearsay." Hearsay is not admissible as evidence.

The burden is on the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I was given effective notice before I can be convicted of a crime in this matter.

As far as all you "well, you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride" naysayers out there, what is really going to happen is either of three things:

1) Nothing. Because concealed is concealed and I am the only person in this world who is going to know I am carrying and no one else is going to be any the wiser.

Or, if I were to somehow get outed,

2) Someone from the mall management or security will approach me and either then give me effective notice or ask me to leave, at which time I will politely apologize and accede to their wishes by taking myself and my money elsewhere.

or

3) Someone will call the police, who will arrive and ask me to leave, at which time I will politely apologize and accede to their wishes by taking myself and my money elsewhere.

4) Someone will call the police, who will arrive and, knowing the area is posted and off limits, decide to arrest you, book you, charge you, and then you get to shell out thousands of dollars in your defense. The police are under no obligation to "ask you to leave" and wait for your compliance.

Just for giggles I asked one of my neighbors who is a DPS trooper about this scenario. He said whether he arrested the person or just escorted them off the property was going to depend entirely on their attitude. He also said that he is certain the same could be said of the vast majority of State Troopers, but that local LEOs were a whole different ball game.

So, if you are going to a place that you know has a validly posted 30.06 and trying to use the "but it wasn't posted where I entered so I didn't know" excuse, you might wanna make sure you are VERY convincing. Most of the LEOs that I know have great bull detectors....

[cb1000rider]

As far as all you "well, you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride" naysayers out there, what is really going to happen is either of three things:

1) Nothing. Because concealed is concealed and I am the only person in this world who is going to know I am carrying and no one else is going to be any the wiser.

Or, if I were to somehow get outed,

2) Someone from the mall management or security will approach me and either then give me effective notice or ask me to leave, at which time I will politely apologize and accede to their wishes by taking myself and my money elsewhere.

or

3) Someone will call the police, who will arrive and ask me to leave, at which time I will politely apologize and accede to their wishes by taking myself and my money elsewhere.

Clearly we're not limited to those 3 option. The other option is that you get taken to jail - maybe you meet a LEO with an off day or you decide to profess your 2nd amendment rights and he/she doesn't like your attitude.
The ride isn't a big deal.
It'll cost you a *lot* of money for the state to run though it's burden to prove you are wrong. If they lose, you're still out that time, money, and arrest record. If they win, well, you're out the time, money, jail time, and arrest record.

That sign isn't obvious to me, however, I'm not going to risk it. If you have spare retirement income to be a test case, by all means - continue on....