Cops and CHL holders

[jimlongley]

Of all of the LEOs I have had occasion to talk about such things with, including 2 different Citizens' Police Academies and numerous ride alongs, only a couple have ever expressed what I would consider a "negative attitude" toward CHLs in general.

That one was the School Resource Officer at the school my wife works at. When I pointed out the non-compliant 30.06 signs posted on the edge of school property, he talked over the top of me and insisted that he and the scool district would arrest and prosecute any CHL found to be carrying anywhere on school property.

It was his attitude and statements that encouraged me to contact the school district about it. The school district basically stated the same things, almost word for word, leading me to believe that he was merely parroting a school policy directive.

I understand that the school district seems to have changed their tune since then, although the signs remain in place.

The other was when I was a TSA screener at Love Field, when I pointed out that: A) the signs were just flat the wrong ones; and B) that Love, being government property could not be effectively posted, they came close to threatening to arrest me then and there, stating that the signs were enforceable, and that they would, and that if I thought different I was being an obstructionist.

I see both of those circumstances as anti-CHL, and have continued to carry.

The signs are still up at Love.

Why would you point out an invalid sign? It gives us the chance to legally carry there. The fact that you brought it up dismisses your ability to disregard an invalid sign because your pretty much asking them to give you a verbal notice. What does telling them benefit you? It only bring their ignorance to a level where they are aware the sign is wrong and then can change it and then you've just put all chl holders attendance out the window for that place of business

Been discussed here more times than I care to count. Besides the fact that I do not believe in the "chance to legally carry there" philosophy, in both circumstances above I did not point out that the sign was invalid until after I had determined that the intended to enforce it. Then pointing out that the signs, in the case of the school district, were the wrong size and rendered ineffective by law, and in the case of the airport, just totally wrong (30.05) and rendered ineffective by law, obtained the answers that they intended to enforce and prosecute, and the school district's answer (above the LEO who, in each case said they were following orders from above) was that their lawyers said the law didn't apply because they were not a government entity, and the airport authority just said that what they said was the rules and that was that.

I will continue to point out invalid signage to anyone that posts it, and collect the answers (Fort Worth Zoo says it's a school, with no further comment on the location of their posting) because as I see it, they are anti-gun and don't want my business, and they should be made to put up the big ugly sign.

Once again and you are not going to change my mind.

[ATDM]

as I see it, they are anti-gun and don't want my business, and they should be made to put up the big ugly sign.

Once again

I agree with the notion that, if a business puts up a 30.06 and I strongly suspect that they are doing it just because of their political beliefs — I will not spend my money there and will encourage others to follow suit. I want them to realize that:
1. CHL holders have disposable cash: every legal CHL holder has to spend ~$800 on a decent gun (more money for more than one gun), $100-%150 for a CHL class, $150 for the application, money on the shooting range ammunition and gun maintenance (I spend about $150 per month on that), decent holsters and accessories, etc.
2. CHL holders are law abiding and SANE citizens, who have passed through the Federal and State scrutiny, and therefore will not cause trouble as customers.
3. This is Texas!

Any savvy business owner will be able to look at this objectively and realize that he/she is losing revenue by posting their 30.06 and will take it down. The ones who won't take it down are the ideologues and demagogues, whose very ideology clashes with mine, and I would not want to contribute to their well-being. I would rather spend my money on people, who respect the 2nd Amendment for the right "to bear" arms and not only to "keep" them in one's home (if that).

As the CHL holder numbers grow — violent crimes and number of victims go down, and to achieve that goal I am going to do my best to spend my money on the RIGHT KIND of businesses that don't make it more difficult for me to carry. I truly hope that the 30.06 signs will keep coming down, and the businesses that keep it — would shut down.

Just an opinion.

By the way, LOVE THE DEAD HORSE smiley! Have never seen one before.

[Keith B]

2. CHL holders are law abiding and SANE citizens...:

Well, one out of two ain't bad.

[ATDM]

2. CHL holders are law abiding and SANE citizens...:

Well, one out of two ain't bad.

Which one?

[TexasGal]

The LEO's I have met since carrying have all had either a neutral or a positive attitude. I've been complemented on carrying on my person rather than in my purse by two, complemented on being careful to put them at ease by two others. Perhaps being an older lady who carries is part of it. One who came to my home in response to a prowler call urged me to be mentally prepared to use it if someone breaks in. I had commented I would not shoot someone over my TV set and he admonished me saying I could not assume the same of the criminal! Which is a good point. These were in the DFW area.

[jimlongley]

2. CHL holders are law abiding and SANE citizens...:

Well, one out of two ain't bad.

Which one?

Not necessarily mutually exclusive, but still possibly one or the other.

[davidjurss]

I have a friend in the police department in the next town over. I've asked him what his thoughts were and he's generally positive about CHL holders. He realizes that we've gone through background checks and training and knows that 99.99% will follow the law. His chief doesn't really like it, as he is one of those that believes a civilian shouldn't be carrying and "trying to do his job for him".

I have had a pretty positive traffic stop recently though. I got pulled over for having a license plate light out, and wasn't carrying at the time. My CHL is right under my drivers license in my wallet so I can display them both if I'm carrying. Well I pulled my DL out and my CHL came out and landed in my lap. The officer saw it and asked to see it, then asked if I was carrying. I told him no I wasn't, since I was coming from Ft Sam Houston. He said "We'll this card isn't going to protect you without a weapon now is it?" He asked me what I normally carry, said it was a good choice and that he really wants one, and let me go. No written warning, just told me to get it fixed. This was an SAPD officer.

[Ruark]

Yes, a lot of it depends more on the community legal environment that the officer on the street. Travis County, for example, which is infested with flip-wristed, transplanted California yuppies (e.g. the police chief), has a reputation for being vehemently anti-gun, and for putting people through a full-blown criminal charge/grand jury process regardless of whether it was self defense or not. Up in my area, around Lampasas, Hamilton and Coryell counties, they'll slap you on the back and say "good shot!" Anybody up here who runs for public office and isn't strongly pro-CCW has no chance of getting elected.

[alvins]

What I find interesting is that everyone thinks police are more trained in firearms then a gun enthusiast. Yes a lot of chl's hardly ever shoot their gun and police may only qualify yearly. But I have seen more police and millitary people who have very little firearms knowledge.

I have been pulled over by HPD and harris county sherrifs and neither even cared about my chl or even asked where my gun was.though i do think the harris count sheriff was more interested in getting my ticket fast as so he could get back to his speed trap.

[bt1911]

I have been pulled over by HPD and harris county sherrifs and neither even cared about my chl or even asked where my gun was.though i do think the harris count sheriff was more interested in getting my ticket fast as so he could get back to his speed trap.

Same here. I rolled through a stop sign in downtown FW a number of years ago and was pulled over by a middle-age, female police officer. This was prior to the "travel" change a couple years back so I gave her my CHL along with everything else. She immediately handed it back to me without looking at it saying "I don't need to see that". She wrote the ticket and never said another word. She could've cared less what was in my truck.

[ATDM]

I have been pulled over by HPD and harris county sherrifs and neither even cared about my chl or even asked where my gun was.though i do think the harris count sheriff was more interested in getting my ticket fast as so he could get back to his speed trap.

Same here. I rolled through a stop sign in downtown FW a number of years ago and was pulled over by a middle-age, female police officer. This was prior to the "travel" change a couple years back so I gave her my CHL along with everything else. She immediately handed it back to me without looking at it saying "I don't need to see that". She wrote the ticket and never said another word. She could've cared less what was in my truck.

I would rather see them indifferent than anti-CHL. Any rational cop should be happy that there are armed law abiding honest citizens, who have gone through a thorough background checks. They are not some hot heads, itching to pull the trigger. They are people, who are well informed and ready to protect and defend their families, neighbors and themselves. Statistically, in cases of mass shootings, the casualty number drops from 15 to 2, when there is a concealed carry permit holder present on the scene. There is no evidence that the increased number of CHL holders raises crime rates (or even open carry citizens in other states), but there IS evidence that they DO have a positive effect on crime stats. So, this anti-gun attitudes among some cops is PURELY IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN. There is NO rationale behind it - only emotion or blind conviction. And that's that.

[Ruark]

Statistically, in cases of mass shootings, the casualty number drops from 15 to 2, when there is a concealed carry permit holder present on the scene.

Got a cite on that?

[ATDM]

Statistically, in cases of mass shootings, the casualty number drops from 15 to 2, when there is a concealed carry permit holder present on the scene.

Got a cite on that?

I'd have to look it up, when I am on my computer. The exact statistics I read a month ago were 14.7 vs 2.4...

I will look that up and post it.

[K.Mooneyham]

In Texas, especially in the more rural areas, CHL holders are more likely viewed as aids to, allies of, law enforcement, contrasted to the urban areas where it is somewhat less likely.

In California, of course, the attitude was more "them against us" anyone with a weapon was viewed as an opponent if not an enemy.

The Chief of Police in most cities in San Diego were enthusiastically opposed to CCW permits and the Sheriff who had the authority to issue them, would rather not, but realized he had to at least issue some or spend time in court, which he is.

There is an interesting sociological study in this.

I have to disagree with that statement. I worked 2 decades in CA and the beat level LEO is not anti gun, expect when it comes to criminals with guns (gangsters, parolees, drug dealers, ect)...I even remember back when I was a police explorer in the early 80's and we stopped a normal guy with a loaded gun> I got my first lesson on educating the person how to legally carry vs arresting him (Kern County).

I knew an Air Force Reservist at Travis AFB in Northern California who was a San Francisco PD "beat cop". One time I asked him what he thought about concealed carry. He said he thought it was fine because he kind of looked at it that ANYONE might be armed, and at least when someone had a license to carry, then it bothered him a lot less. Good guy with his head on straight.

[tobasco]

I've been stopped 3 times while carrying and all were positive. I'm in central Texas. Once was on the way back from the range and the officer even made some small talk about how my shooting went. Just have to remember to follow instructions and keep your hands visible on the wheel. Don't forget and scratch an itch on your belly. I always kind of worry about that. I really need to slow down though.