Cops shoot two bystanders on Broadway

[JSThane]

Oh, and one minor nit-pick, AndyC... cops are civilians, too.

[rbwhatever1]

JSThane:
What are Lawyers saying about the "Duty Ammo Issue"? Are these internal State Lawyers?

[baldeagle]

If they would quit nearly tripling the trigger pull on those glocks, maybe this wouldn't happen as often

This is a significant part of the problem, but not the only one.

In NYC, most police officers handle a handgun for the first time on the police academy range. They have no lifetime of training and usage behind them. This isn't a fault, it's just a fact.

New York City has one training range for it's 35,000+ officers. Although the instructors are top notch, getting all the troops there at all each year is a major logistical challenge, let alone getting them there enough for frequent enough training to be effective.

Many officers pride themselves on not liking guns (it's fashionable up there) and take a "union" position that they won't do any training they're not being paid for.

Add all that up, and the wonder isn't that these things happen, it's that they don't happen much more often than they do with this background, the activity level, and the extremely crowded environment.

This is the real problem in New York. If you don't train regularly, how are you supposed to hit a moving target in a high stress situation? New York administrators should be ashamed of themselves.

[texanjoker]

If they would quit nearly tripling the trigger pull on those glocks, maybe this wouldn't happen as often

This is a significant part of the problem, but not the only one.

In NYC, most police officers handle a handgun for the first time on the police academy range. They have no lifetime of training and usage behind them. This isn't a fault, it's just a fact.

New York City has one training range for it's 35,000+ officers. Although the instructors are top notch, getting all the troops there at all each year is a major logistical challenge, let alone getting them there enough for frequent enough training to be effective.

Many officers pride themselves on not liking guns (it's fashionable up there) and take a "union" position that they won't do any training they're not being paid for.

Add all that up, and the wonder isn't that these things happen, it's that they don't happen much more often than they do with this background, the activity level, and the extremely crowded environment.

This is the real problem in New York. If you don't train regularly, how are you supposed to hit a moving target in a high stress situation? New York administrators should be ashamed of themselves.

I think that is a problem in a lot of places. In my former life we qualified quarterly and were issued ammo if we wanted each month to practice... in certain units we shot even more then that. Here in TX they only require a yearly qual...many smaller depts. only go by that with no practice ammo, ect. That makes it up to the individual to see if they want to maintain proficiency... As far as the "union" position I find that absurd. Many would go practice if afforded the opportunity. If not at least have a quarterly qual shoot forcing them to get range time. But then that takes $$$ and as it is here in TX many won't pay it.

[Jaguar]

If they would quit nearly tripling the trigger pull on those glocks, maybe this wouldn't happen as often

This is a significant part of the problem, but not the only one.

In NYC, most police officers handle a handgun for the first time on the police academy range. They have no lifetime of training and usage behind them. This isn't a fault, it's just a fact.

New York City has one training range for it's 35,000+ officers. Although the instructors are top notch, getting all the troops there at all each year is a major logistical challenge, let alone getting them there enough for frequent enough training to be effective.

Many officers pride themselves on not liking guns (it's fashionable up there) and take a "union" position that they won't do any training they're not being paid for.

Add all that up, and the wonder isn't that these things happen, it's that they don't happen much more often than they do with this background, the activity level, and the extremely crowded environment.

This is the real problem in New York. If you don't train regularly, how are you supposed to hit a moving target in a high stress situation? New York administrators should be ashamed of themselves.

I think that is a problem in a lot of places. In my former life we qualified quarterly and were issued ammo if we wanted each month to practice... in certain units we shot even more then that. Here in TX they only require a yearly qual...many smaller depts. only go by that with no practice ammo, ect. That makes it up to the individual to see if they want to maintain proficiency... As far as the "union" position I find that absurd. Many would go practice if afforded the opportunity. If not at least have a quarterly qual shoot forcing them to get range time. But then that takes $$$ and as it is here in TX many won't pay it.

Why wouldn't a police officer wish to maintain proficiency for their current occupation. There are aspects pertaining to my job I don’t like but I devote time to them even while “off the clock”. It makes me better at my job, my boss appreciates the effort, and it may save someone’s life. And still I have time to go to a private range using a membership I purchased, ammo I purchased and a gun I purchased - usually a couple times a month to keep proficient with my pistol which has no bearing on my current occupation.

These excuses don’t pass the sniff test. If people don't want to do their job proficiently then they need to find a job where if they screw up it won't cost taxpayers money at best or kill people at worst. I work for a private company and if someone is injured or killed and the company and I were found liable I would not have qualified immunity, I would not keep my job, and I would not be suspended with pay. I would be unemployed, destitute and looking for a job with my culpability hanging over my head. Just because I am not required to put in the time and effort on my own dime doesn’t exempt me from consequences if I don't.

My father used to say, "You may not have the best job in the world, but you should strive to be your best at it."

[texanjoker]

If they would quit nearly tripling the trigger pull on those glocks, maybe this wouldn't happen as often

This is a significant part of the problem, but not the only one.

In NYC, most police officers handle a handgun for the first time on the police academy range. They have no lifetime of training and usage behind them. This isn't a fault, it's just a fact.

New York City has one training range for it's 35,000+ officers. Although the instructors are top notch, getting all the troops there at all each year is a major logistical challenge, let alone getting them there enough for frequent enough training to be effective.

Many officers pride themselves on not liking guns (it's fashionable up there) and take a "union" position that they won't do any training they're not being paid for.

Add all that up, and the wonder isn't that these things happen, it's that they don't happen much more often than they do with this background, the activity level, and the extremely crowded environment.

This is the real problem in New York. If you don't train regularly, how are you supposed to hit a moving target in a high stress situation? New York administrators should be ashamed of themselves.

I think that is a problem in a lot of places. In my former life we qualified quarterly and were issued ammo if we wanted each month to practice... in certain units we shot even more then that. Here in TX they only require a yearly qual...many smaller depts. only go by that with no practice ammo, ect. That makes it up to the individual to see if they want to maintain proficiency... As far as the "union" position I find that absurd. Many would go practice if afforded the opportunity. If not at least have a quarterly qual shoot forcing them to get range time. But then that takes $$$ and as it is here in TX many won't pay it.

Why wouldn't a police officer wish to maintain proficiency for their current occupation. There are aspects pertaining to my job I don’t like but I devote time to them even while “off the clock”. It makes me better at my job, my boss appreciates the effort, and it may save someone’s life. And still I have time to go to a private range using a membership I purchased, ammo I purchased and a gun I purchased - usually a couple times a month to keep proficient with my pistol which has no bearing on my current occupation.

These excuses don’t pass the sniff test. If people don't want to do their job proficiently then they need to find a job where if they screw up it won't cost taxpayers money at best or kill people at worst. I work for a private company and if someone is injured or killed and the company and I were found liable I would not have qualified immunity, I would not keep my job, and I would not be suspended with pay. I would be unemployed, destitute and looking for a job with my culpability hanging over my head. Just because I am not required to put in the time and effort on my own dime doesn’t exempt me from consequences if I don't.

My father used to say, "You may not have the best job in the world, but you should strive to be your best at it."

Not sure where you get anybody especially myself is making an excuse . I pointing out the reality of the situation. Many places will not budget ammo and the only legal requirement is for the leo to pass the yearly qual shoot. If the leo passed that shoot, then they have met the requirement so there is no more liability whether they go practice on their own or not. In the real world with moving real human targets people miss. Not saying it is good or condoning it, but it is a fact of life. Pray you are never in that position where you have to take the shot and miss.

[Jaguar]

I think that is a problem in a lot of places. In my former life we qualified quarterly and were issued ammo if we wanted each month to practice... in certain units we shot even more then that. Here in TX they only require a yearly qual...many smaller depts. only go by that with no practice ammo, ect. That makes it up to the individual to see if they want to maintain proficiency... As far as the "union" position I find that absurd. Many would go practice if afforded the opportunity. If not at least have a quarterly qual shoot forcing them to get range time. But then that takes $$$ and as it is here in TX many won't pay it.

Why wouldn't a police officer wish to maintain proficiency for their current occupation. There are aspects pertaining to my job I don’t like but I devote time to them even while “off the clock”. It makes me better at my job, my boss appreciates the effort, and it may save someone’s life. And still I have time to go to a private range using a membership I purchased, ammo I purchased and a gun I purchased - usually a couple times a month to keep proficient with my pistol which has no bearing on my current occupation.

These excuses don’t pass the sniff test. If people don't want to do their job proficiently then they need to find a job where if they screw up it won't cost taxpayers money at best or kill people at worst. I work for a private company and if someone is injured or killed and the company and I were found liable I would not have qualified immunity, I would not keep my job, and I would not be suspended with pay. I would be unemployed, destitute and looking for a job with my culpability hanging over my head. Just because I am not required to put in the time and effort on my own dime doesn’t exempt me from consequences if I don't.

My father used to say, "You may not have the best job in the world, but you should strive to be your best at it."

Not sure where you get anybody especially myself is making an excuse . I pointing out the reality of the situation. Many places will not budget ammo and the only legal requirement is for the leo to pass the yearly qual shoot. If the leo passed that shoot, then they have met the requirement so there is no more liability whether they go practice on their own or not. In the real world with moving real human targets people miss. Not saying it is good or condoning it, but it is a fact of life. Pray you are never in that position where you have to take the shot and miss.

Maybe it is the reality, but if individuals do not take seriously the occupation they have, they will not perform up to their capabilities, or what the public expects. I am not saying you or anyone here is making excuses for them, but the people who are in the position and choose not to pursue any additional practice, training and/or knowledge do use it as an excuse. So the department won’t purchase your practice ammo – go buy your own. So the department won’t pay you to attend additional training – go do training on your own. So NYPD makes you use guns that have 25 lbs. trigger pulls (I know, an exaggeration), well go home and dry fire for a few hours every night. So you don’t know that non-LEO citizens have a right* to say, “I don’t want to give you my ID”, or “I don’t consent to searches” – study up on the law. Become the best LEO you can be and make the public proud of your actions, not fear you may accidentally shoot them while they tour Time Square.

*Right not valid in New York City

NYPD use the heavy trigger pull to compensate for lack of trigger discipline – that is a sad substitute for training and an insight into the problem. The fact their officers don’t pursue additional training speaks to the individuals.

Great googlie-mooglie, I sound like my dad.

Oh, and I do pray I am never in a situation where I have to take a shot (hit or miss).