Online CHL in an hour?

[Laneman]

I am concerned about a growing trend of companies offering out of state CHL's that can be used by Texas residents to carry in Texas. I recently found an ad offering CHL licenses to Texas residents in 1 hour by watching a video online,no need to demonstrate ability to handle a firearm in public of to understand Texas CHL laws. The resident is then issued a Virginia CHL which can be used in our state through reciprocity. I think Texas has the best CHL program in the nation. I am proud to have taken the long version of the Texas CHL course 5 years ago. I believe these companies are circumventing Texas law and are creating public safety issues. In my opinion Texas should not offer reciprocity to those states that have weak CHL programs.

[RoyGBiv]

Hmmm... Where to start.?

1. I agree that businesses that make their salt by using less restrictive CHL programs to circumvent more restrictive programs are, BAD. They're bad because the reciprocal States will probably be tempted to change their reciprocity rules and the less-restrictive States will be pressured to become more restrictive/expensive. Intentionally flouting such a "loophole" hurts all of us in one way or another.

However.....

2. I would have been more proud to have read the TX laws on my own, walked in to a licensing office and taken the written test, without the need for any class. Or better yet, I'd be even more proud if Texans didn't need a license to CC at all. Or OC. Since reality is not going to favor these things right now, I'll be content with incremental improvements to make CC in TX less restricted. I was somewhat embarrassed that my home State required me to take a full-day class in order to exercise my rights. Does an MSNBC reporter need to take a 1A class before they can go on the air? How about a NY Times reported before he can be published?

3. Texas should offer reciprocity to every State, regardless of their CHL requirements (within reason... background check, etc.). I remember quite clearly the two ladies in my TX class. They were literally shaking before stepping up to the firing line at the range. Shivering might be a better description. Both passed. What does this tell me? That ANYONE with reasonable motor skills can pass the TX proficiency, and that the notion of a proficiency is just silly. I'm very glad we've done away with it for renewals.

I'm glad that we could agree on #1.

[Cjwglock19]

I guess I'm a little different. To me the class, or at least the way it was done, was very informative as to the law, and I enjoyed it! I wouldn't want an online 1 hour class. The gentleman that did my class was a former highway patrol officer, a former school teacher, and did a great presentation. He used PowerPoints with his voice pre-recorded, followed with clarification and used several scenario videos from the Personal Defense Network with Rob Pincus. As far as comfort in carrying and my decisions to, it did little. However, I felt confident in knowing that I knew when and where I could carry, was able to consider and discuss when and how I should react to a situation, and had a solid understanding of the legal responsibility I was accepting.

Now the shooting test....whew that can worry you!! I saw more people who needed more training in just the safe handling of a firearm let alone how to shoot one! And I have heard stories that make me shake my head! I must admit I'm glad we don't have to do as much to renew, however I worry about people that don't take their training seriously not remaining "proficient" with their firearm JMHO!

I do agree though that if you are licensed in one state you should be covered in all! But part of the responsibility is for us to know the law too! So before we travel I check updates in every state I will be in and bookmark the laws in my phone....but that may be another reason to never leave our great state!!

[steveincowtown]

An hour class WILL NOT make you a responsible CHL holder.

...and neither will a 4 hour class.


....or a 10 hour class.


Being a responsible CHL holder means taking personal responsibility to keep your skills and knowledge up to date.

Also, if the OP really believes shorter classes might be a problem could you point to any instances in Arizona or Alaska (where no license or class is required) in which issues arose from a lack of a class?

[Pecos]

I am concerned about a growing trend of companies offering out of state CHL's that can be used by Texas residents to carry in Texas. I recently found an ad offering CHL licenses to Texas residents in 1 hour by watching a video online,no need to demonstrate ability to handle a firearm in public of to understand Texas CHL laws. The resident is then issued a Virginia CHL which can be used in our state through reciprocity. I think Texas has the best CHL program in the nation. I am proud to have taken the long version of the Texas CHL course 5 years ago. I believe these companies are circumventing Texas law and are creating public safety issues. In my opinion Texas should not offer reciprocity to those states that have weak CHL programs.

[Tic Tac]

The NRA advertises these online classes in their magazines. Maybe some of you should organize a letter writng campaign if you think the classes are such a bad thing.

[starview]

I believe these companies are circumventing Texas law and are creating public safety issues. In my opinion Texas should not offer reciprocity to those states that have weak CHL programs.

So what you are saying is that you would be against Constitutional Carry for Texans that states like Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont, and Wyoming already have? I don't agree with that.

I'm saddened that we have to have any permission from the state of Texas to exercise our rights.

[The_Busy_Mom]

This is a double-edged sword. I am a CHL Instructor, and I fully support open carry. Yes, I know that might mean the end to the CHL instruction side of my business, but I would gladly give that up to have open carry.

As far as the one-hour, online class to get a VA license, we have to remember that an out-of-state license does not come with the same privileges. A VA CHL will not exempt you from the NICS check in purchasing a firearm in Texas. So, an out-of-state licensee needs to make sure they know all the laws/regulations about Texas CHL. So why not just spend the few extra bucks, jump through a few more hoops, and get a TX CHL. You get what you pay for.

But as I said, I don't think anyone should have to take a class. So, I'm kind of riding both sides of the fence. Just trying to practice my rights in the environment in which I have them, while supporting the path to open carry.

TBM

[bizarrenormality]

The NRA advertises these online classes in their magazines. Maybe some of you should organize a letter writng campaign if you think the classes are such a bad thing.

There was a thread about that. The poll responses were interesting. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65841" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Texas_Blaze]

will someone please let me know when the next 1, 4, or 10 hr course so that you can vote is being held?

[tommyg]

I think it is stupid to give someone a license to carry if they can't
show that they are competent to load fire and carry safely

[TexasGal]

I've seen some things at the ranges that make me want to avoid anywhere that person plans to go. Ever.

[jmra]

I think it is stupid to give someone a license to carry if they can't
show that they are competent to load fire and carry safely

Should they also have to show competency in order to carry in their car under MPA? Maybe even to purchase a firearm?
I see this thought process as a slippery slope.

[74novaman]

I think it is stupid to give someone a license to carry if they can't
show that they are competent to load fire and carry safely

Should they also have to show competency in order to carry in their car under MPA? Maybe even to purchase a firearm?
I see this thought process as a slippery slope.

Agreed 100%.

I posted this on another forum, but seems relevant to this discussion:

Arizona passed Constitutional Carry in 2010. Zero class time or permitting required to openly or concealed carry a firearm. Based on the premise that people need more training to prevent gun accidents, accidental gun deaths in Arizona should have gone up in 2010, correct?

Accidental gun deaths in Arizona by year (from the CDC)

2006-9
2007-14
2008- 11
2009- No data
2010- 12
2011 on- no published data yet.

So a one year data point didn't see a huge uptick, but just to satisfy the "not enough data crowd", we can also check out Alaska:

Alaska passed a similar law in 2003.

1999- 3
2000- 2
2001- 1
2002- 1
2003- 3
2004- 0
2005- 2

Doesn't seem like a lack of CHL training led to an increase in accidental gun deaths in either of those states.

Those who are responsible adults will get training, practice and behave responsibly, regardless of state mandated requirements.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe anyone who has ever sat through a CHL class would consider it good safety training anyway. You go over the law, you shoot at a big easy target, and you take a test on the law. Not a whole lot of safety training or safe firearms handling gets taught in a CHL class. That is not a jab at CHL instructors, because their job in the Texas CHL class is to teach the law and ensure students meet the requirements set by the state.

I've never seen or heard about a lot of safety beyond the basic 4 rules being taught in CHL classes, so I don't buy into the whole "CHL classes are important for safety" argument. They're important for learning the law. Most of them pretty much teach you jack squat about firearms safety or good pistol shooting.

[The Annoyed Man]

I think it is stupid to give someone a license to carry if they can't
show that they are competent to load fire and carry safely

Why not? You don't need a license to speak just to prove that you won't speak irresponsibly. You don't think that speech is as dangerous as guns? Have you ever been in the middle of an actual riot which was incited by speech?

I hate the idea of having to have a license, pay a fee, or take a class. I believe completely in constitutional carry. BUT......... the reality of it is that we do have a licensing law and other restrictions on the books. Another reality is that government, no matter how conservative, does not easily relinquish power once it has taken it, so any attempt to get constitutional carry passed in Texas is going to be a fight. For cryin' out loud, THIS state has a person like Wendy Davis running for goobernator, and the DNC (they may be evil, but they are not stupid) thinks she is the best opportunity in decades to turn Texas "treason blue." Constitutional carry will never pass as long as Joe Strauss calls himself a republican and keeps getting reelected, and as long as the alleged "conservatives" in the legislature keep voting him in as Speaker. It will certainly never pass if Davis somehow wins.

As badly as I want it, I am a realist and understand that Constitutional Carry is dead on arrival in Texas. No matter how badly some of us want it, there just aren't enough right-minded people to get it passed. Sorry......that's just a fact.

SO...... what does that say about our licensing laws? We have a legislature which is (like most of legislatures) jealous of its prerogatives. When people try circumvent the legislature's intent, the legislature WILL react. You can take that to the bank. Their reaction won't be one of "Oh, they're right....we're too restrictive and we need to loosen things up." No, it will be a negative one, and they'll tighten the screws even harder.

That's what governments do. It's one thing to expect different because you have high expectations. It is quite another thing to expect different based on any kind of experience.

I expect the legislature to behave differently because I hold them to a high constitutional standard. But I don't expect them to behave different based on any kind of historical experience. You tweak their nose, and we will ALL suffer. It is the macrocosm of the Starbucks OC demonstrations. You tweak the company's nose, and now we are ALL on notice, both OCers and CCers, that we are not welcome at Starbucks because of the irresponsibility of a few OCers.

That's why I think those class offerings are a bad idea. I understand that, for some people, that may be all they can afford, but that doesn't change the fact that in a general way they are a bad idea. In fact, it was Texas vendors advertising non-resident Utah CFPs as an end-around to Texas CHL law that compelled Utah to change its own law so that non-resident licenses will not be issued to anybody who doesn't already have a license in their home state. THAT is what happens when bozos act without discretion.